BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
INDustry distribution
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-19-2011, 12:48 AM   #1
nuzey
Private First Class
 
nuzey's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 138
iTrader: (2)

Dealership detuned my car (to stock)

I have recently went to the dealership to have my car inspected because I want to make sure it is in good shape before I transport it to Vegas. So I told my SA to double check every aspect of the car; engine, transmission, ecu, chassis and everything else.

While the tech was on it, the car suddenly has a CEL. They checked the code and found nothing. So then he requested another day for the car to be in there for more diagnosis. A few hours later, he called me back and asked if I had any performance software upgrade on the car and I said no. Now, the problem is actually yes, my car had Powerchip stage 1 tune. I did not want to say I did because it will void my warranty. Besides, Powerchip claimed that dealerships will not know about the car being tuned (turned out that way fortunately). Car never had CEL issue since the tune so I think it is not because of the tune. SA then told me there's an increase airflow in the car system and the tech is trying to figure out why. They wanted another day so I said okay.

The next day came and SA called to tell me the car is ready and has no more CEL issues. I went to pick it up and right after I started the car, I noticed something was off. My exhausts sounded different. It is definitely not as aggressive as before. So I had a suspicion that they detuned the car without telling me since I said I did not have a tune to escape warranty void. I know for certain that they detuned it when I reached home, switched off the car and took out my key to realize that the doors are not unlocked. Now, I had coded the car so that when I took out the key, the doors will unlock automatically. This tells me that the dealership has detuned the car.

Do you guys think the dealership detuned the car? Should I talk to Powerchip about this since they said it will not pop a CEL? Help me out guys. I am just unhappy right now because my exhaust does not have the old and louder aggressive tone
__________________
nuzey is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 01:41 AM   #2
wisesoul
Savoir Faire
 
wisesoul's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 BMW M5
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Los Angeles, Ca

Posts: 1,657
iTrader: (0)

Sounds like they reflashed it with factory software. Install the software again!
__________________
Current: Alpine White F10 M5|H&R springs|12mm/10mm spacers|Eisenmann Race
Sold:Imola Yellow RS4-KW V3|MTM 10mm spacers|Hotchkis rear sway bar|APR Stage 1|Milltek Catless|RNS-E|Euro RS4 Flat bottom Steering Wheel
Sold:E46 323i
wisesoul is offline   Philippines
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 01:54 AM   #3
nuzey
Private First Class
 
nuzey's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 138
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisesoul View Post
Sounds like they reflashed it with factory software. Install the software again!
I don't know if I have to pay to program it again. I might just live with it. Sigh.
__________________
nuzey is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 02:02 AM   #4
SECRET M
Engineer
 
SECRET M's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Northern California

Posts: 276
iTrader: (1)

series of mistakes on your part.

call powerchip and see what they say, but honestly this is kind of your f-up. sometimes honesty is the best policy. put a post-it on the gauges next time that says performance-tune installed, do not re-flash.
__________________
2012 Range Rover Sport Autobiography :: Sumatra Black|Tan.Ebony
2008 BMW ///M3 :: Space Gray|Black
SECRET M is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 03:15 AM   #5
eisenb11
Major
 
Drives: 2012 E92 M3 SSII
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Redondo Beach, CA, USA

Posts: 1,122
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SECRET M View Post
series of mistakes on your part.

call powerchip and see what they say, but honestly this is kind of your f-up. sometimes honesty is the best policy. put a post-it on the gauges next time that says performance-tune installed, do not re-flash.
Yeah, but that would defeat his purpose of not voiding his warranty.

He had to choose between the warranty and the tune. Looks like the warranty won. If I had a tune, I'd probably do the same if I were in his boat.
eisenb11 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 03:45 AM   #6
jimmyeatsworld
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Orange County

Posts: 212
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SECRET M View Post
series of mistakes on your part.

call powerchip and see what they say, but honestly this is kind of your f-up. sometimes honesty is the best policy. put a post-it on the gauges next time that says performance-tune installed, do not re-flash.
Hell f'in no. Do not say this. They will definitely flag your car and void warranty.

They probably reflashed your ecu. Pretty much protocol for dealerships to do that.
__________________
RPI GT Race Exhaust ~ RPI Scoops ~ BMC Air Filter ~ 19" BBS LM DBK ~ JL Motoring VRS Front Lip ~ Vorsteiner Diffuser Type I ~ KW Clubsports

My RPI GT Race Dyno vs. Stock: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239228
jimmyeatsworld is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 08:39 AM   #7
gthal
Brigadier General
 
gthal's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada

Posts: 3,213
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 M3  [3.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
Why did you have them check the ECU when you are running a tune? What did you think would happen?
+1... seems the mistake was asking them to inspect it at that level while tuned. Also, I suspect that telling them you weren't tuned won't matter much if they really investigated. They would be able to find it according to some of the top tuning companies.
__________________
2015 Austin Yellow M4 | Black Full Merino Leather | DCT
2014 Corvette Stingray | Z51 | Torch Red | 7MT - Sold
2012 C63 Coupe | Performance package | Obsidian Black - Sold
2011 E92 M3 | Jerez Black | Fox Red | DCT | Competition Package - Sold
gthal is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 08:46 AM   #8
Sean05
Putcha ang ganda...
 
Sean05's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 MR E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Los Angeles, Brea CA.

Posts: 5,331
iTrader: (9)

Send a message via Yahoo to Sean05
WELL its not the dealer fault.. not knowing the issue were.. anyways... doesnt hurt to get it tune again... im pretty sure that it was reflashed to factory...

i had the same situation last week they ask me if i tune the car i said no but they knew....

i said no the only thing i did to the car was LCI tails... and they were able to see that i mess with the DME... i still said no.... but they noted that i have to put back to stock before they can continue to investigate the problem... to be honest i dont have a problem... i just wanted them to check out the idle problem and i complained about it so it will be in there system. .... so if it fails i can go back and complain after the warranty..
__________________
Sean05 is offline   Philippines
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 09:02 AM   #9
F82_SID
Brigadier General
 
F82_SID's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.5 MR/BB E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO. USA

Posts: 3,124
iTrader: (2)

When I was having hpfp problems with my 335 the dealer actually went on e90post and looked me up and then started asking me if I had a JB3. I of-course said "I dont know anything about that". They ended up switching me to a new service advisor because the other guy was so pissed off that he couldn't prove I was tuned. Also, they noted in my "file" that they had a suspicion that I was tuned. End of the story, they ended up buying my car back as a lemon and gave me 2 years of payments back. But I sure was shitting bricks when they started asking questions.
__________________
2011/E92/M3/MR/BB/ZCV/ZP2/EDC/2MT
F82_SID is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 09:20 AM   #10
nuzey
Private First Class
 
nuzey's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 138
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
+1... seems the mistake was asking them to inspect it at that level while tuned. Also, I suspect that telling them you weren't tuned won't matter much if they really investigated. They would be able to find it according to some of the top tuning companies.
The problem was that the CEL popped while the tech was driving the car. Not because they checked the ECU. Powerchip claimed the tune is not 'visible' to dealerships. It was true, the tech and my SA never know there was a tune. They just think the ECU was screwing up. So they tried reflashing to factory settings and it turned out that the CEL was gone. When in fact it actually detuned the car. I should've not let them got an extra day working on it But if I did that, the CEL will keep coming on. According to the tech, the CEL came on and off while driving about couple miles, so he wasn't sure what caused that.

It might be part of Powerchip's fault but I am not sure if it is theirs because the CEL never came on. I will be contacting them.
__________________
nuzey is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 09:46 AM   #11
SECRET M
Engineer
 
SECRET M's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Northern California

Posts: 276
iTrader: (1)

get a better tune
__________________
2012 Range Rover Sport Autobiography :: Sumatra Black|Tan.Ebony
2008 BMW ///M3 :: Space Gray|Black
SECRET M is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 10:53 AM   #12
nuzey
Private First Class
 
nuzey's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 138
iTrader: (2)

UPDATE:

I got the copy of service statement and found this:

CEL was caused by high fuel pressure. It read 3.8 bar at idle when it's supposed to be 3 bar. Changed the fuel pressure sensor and it cleared the fault.

I think this is where they suspected my car was tuned:
CEL came on and off. Tried to run system test and it would not start. Stated it was not possible to adjust the oxygen sensor value during the system test. Ran the O2 sensor system test plan and O2 sensor is operating correctly. PROGRAMMED CAR WITH ISTAP 42.2.2.0 OLD ILEVEL WAS E89X-08-03-530 NEW ILEVEL IS E89X-11-03-511. ALL CONTROL MODULES PROGRAMMED, CAS INCLUDED. TEST DROVE CAR AND CHECK ENGINE LIGHT DID NOT RETURN. HOOKED TO ISID AND RAN FUEL PRESSURE CONTROL AND FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR TEST PLAN AND SYSTEM TEST WOULD RUN. AFTER FIRST TEST FOUND FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR TO BE READING INCORRECTLY.

The caps sentences are exact copy from the service statement. They did some programming and I guess its that ISTAP 42.2.2.0 thing if anyone knows what it is. So my guess right now is that the tune boosts fuel pressure and increased airflow which activated the CEL. Still waiting for Mike from Powerchip to reply my PM. Kinda frustrated right now.
__________________
nuzey is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 11:01 AM   #13
gthal
Brigadier General
 
gthal's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada

Posts: 3,213
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 M3  [3.37]
I can understand the frustration for sure but things like this should really to be expected with a tune if the dealer is servicing the car. Not that it will be an issue every time (because it wouldn't be) but it could be from time to time. You are probably lucky they didn't find the tune and then you would have warranty issues. Like I said before, I have been told by very reputable tuners that if BMW suspect a tune and decide to investigate, they can find any tune. In your case, they didn't investigate which is great.

Another option would be Evolve or ESS. You could get their remote tuning tool and switch back and forth yourself before going to the dealer. This way, the dealer won't see a tuned ECU and you can put it back whenever you want. Having said that, the guys from ESS and Evolve have also said that the dealer could potentially discover the car had been tuned because the OEM redline or other items have been exceeded. Nothing is guaranteed but at least with these two companies the risk is greatly mitigated IMO.
__________________
2015 Austin Yellow M4 | Black Full Merino Leather | DCT
2014 Corvette Stingray | Z51 | Torch Red | 7MT - Sold
2012 C63 Coupe | Performance package | Obsidian Black - Sold
2011 E92 M3 | Jerez Black | Fox Red | DCT | Competition Package - Sold
gthal is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 11:15 AM   #14
Erhan
Colonel
 
Erhan's Avatar
 
Drives: Cooper S
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 2,466
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
Why did you have them check the ECU when you are running a tune? What did you think would happen?
__________________
2011 MINI Cooper S
previous cars: E92 M3, Z4MC, Z4 Roadster, E36 328 Sedan
Erhan is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 11:24 AM   #15
bsiciliano
Captain
 
Drives: 2011 M3 Convertible
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 641
iTrader: (4)

The way around this is simple. Get to know your SA, find out what he drinks and bring him a bottle every once in awhile or slip him a twenty.
__________________
2011 E93 - Space Gray - 6MT/Silver Novillo/
OE Tuning/Gruppe M Intake/ACS Springs/Vorsteiner CF Type I Rear Diffuser/Textured Matte Black Custom Powdercoated OEM 359s/Painted Reflectors/Matte Grille, Hood Vents and Side Markers/Arqray Race Exhaust/MS Pulley
bsiciliano is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 11:34 AM   #16
Erhan
Colonel
 
Erhan's Avatar
 
Drives: Cooper S
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 2,466
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Like I said before, I have been told by very reputable tuners that if BMW suspect a tune and decide to investigate, they can find any tune. In your case, they didn't investigate which is great.
I might be wrong, but if you get a tune, blow your engine, and put back the factory tune, dealer still can find the traces of the aftermarket tune and refuse to cover your engine under warranty.
__________________
2011 MINI Cooper S
previous cars: E92 M3, Z4MC, Z4 Roadster, E36 328 Sedan
Erhan is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 11:43 AM   #17
nuzey
Private First Class
 
nuzey's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 138
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I can understand the frustration for sure but things like this should really to be expected with a tune if the dealer is servicing the car. Not that it will be an issue every time (because it wouldn't be) but it could be from time to time. You are probably lucky they didn't find the tune and then you would have warranty issues. Like I said before, I have been told by very reputable tuners that if BMW suspect a tune and decide to investigate, they can find any tune. In your case, they didn't investigate which is great.

Another option would be Evolve or ESS. You could get their remote tuning tool and switch back and forth yourself before going to the dealer. This way, the dealer won't see a tuned ECU and you can put it back whenever you want. Having said that, the guys from ESS and Evolve have also said that the dealer could potentially discover the car had been tuned because the OEM redline or other items have been exceeded. Nothing is guaranteed but at least with these two companies the risk is greatly mitigated IMO.
I agree with you. I won't likely be using any tune for now. I'll see what Mike has to say.
__________________
nuzey is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 11:45 AM   #18
MienAce
gotAWD?
 
Drives: E85EvoIX
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hell

Posts: 55
iTrader: (0)

u cant have both if u want factory warranty still STOCK.
__________________
CornFedEvo
MienAce is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 01:24 PM   #19
FJS
Private First Class
 
FJS's Avatar
 
Drives: M
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Somewhere

Posts: 135
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MienAce View Post
u cant have both if u want factory warranty still STOCK.
+1
FJS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 01:31 PM   #20
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,684
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Mike @ Powerchip here - let me answer some questions:

The tune is 100% transparent. Meaning it is impossible for the dealer to determine that you have a tune. To them it looks like 100% factory software. In my 7+ years in this field, I have NEVER had a customer declined warranty service with our tune. And this includes more serious repairs that were always covered under warranty without a hitch. I've seen engines replaced, turbos replaced, etc.. all with the tune still in there, and after the repair work is done the dealer has delivered the car back to the customer with the tune still there!

As far as the CEL light coming on while the tech was in the car - Our tune does not turn off the CEL light. If the customer request the CEL be removed for high flow cats, we ONLY remove checking for that particular function. This means that any other faults will cause a check engine light. The check engine light coming on in front of the tech was factory programming and is not due to the tune. Not to mention, if you had the Stage I tune your emissions programming was left stock, as only the Stage II variant removes the cat checking functions.

In fact, before the E9x M3's came out, there was a problem with FACTORY software where the CEL would be illuminated at random points, and no faults were stored. This happened to my car twice, and was fixed in subsequent BMW software revisions. I brought it to the dealer and complained about it and of course they said that no faults were found.

ISTA/P xx.x is the software level of BMW's packaged installations. It in a sense matches up with the software integration level. The latest ISTA/P dealer software is ISTA 42.2.0.0 to my knowledge. This should being your integration level to E89X-11-03-511. The integration level my car came with (called plant integration level) was E89X-07-12-515. Although I was already at E89X-09-06-510 due to previous updates between my purchase and the latest update.

The newest ECU program number is 7846396 which is part of ISTA/P 42.2.0.0

You have no reason to fear the the dealer will detect you have a tune, even with your CEL illuminated. It will interface with the dealer/BMW systems in the exact way as a factory stock tune, and there are no hints or tips that would indicate you have software other than you verbally admitting it to them (Which you should never do!).

If in fact you wanted your CEL to be turned off all together, we can do that. However, I strongly caution against this programming as there is no reason to mask problems that may arise other than the cat efficiency checking.

A couple other things to note:
1) The tune DOES NOT raise fuel pressure! Nothing in our code changes that. Tuners simply alter "maps" such as fueling maps, timing maps, vanos control maps, throttle response maps, etc.. Nothing in there would have a direct influence on fuel pressure. Chances are your sensor went bad, which caused an incorrect reading to be sent to the ECU, and this is why the pressures were off.

2) Everyone that says "you're lucky the dealer didn't find out about the tune": Not to be rude, but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Please chime in when you know more about the technical aspects of this situation.

3) Flashing cars back to stock (unless you use factory dealer equipment or the equipment that I have from BMW AG), even with evolve, ESS, whoever - STILL LEAVES TRACES! There are patches that are applied to be able to write to the factory ECU. When you flash back to stock all off the mapping goes back to stock, but there are still changes present. However, this isn't an issue as I mentioned as there is no way for them to "check" your code. This is WAY over the dealers head. I flashed my sunroof module with the latest software version, and it literally crippled the dealers computer. It said my module was failed and had to be replaced. The dealers systems are by no means expert systems. In fact, they work within a very small framework that doesn't allow them to do ten percent of what I can do with my factory tools from Germany.

4) You can have a tune and your warranty. Every BMW I've owned has had software (E36 M3, E46 M3, E60 M5, E90 M3, even my E32 7 back in the day) - all dealer maintained without any issues whatsoever. I have never had even ONE customer denied coverage. I don't see any reason to put the car back to stock before warranty service. It's a waste of time since there is nothing they can see anyway. Now if they are raising a fuss or are suspicious of you, then that might be a good reason to go back. But regardless, it will still leave traces that are also undetectable by the dealers.

Hope this helps, and please feel free to ask any clarifying questions.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----

Last edited by Mike Benvo; 08-19-2011 at 02:03 PM.
Mike Benvo is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 01:47 PM   #21
J08M3
Major General
 
J08M3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

Posts: 6,012
iTrader: (8)

the interesting thing is the only way you say you knew it was detuned was by engine idle sound and doors not unlocking. nothing mentioned about performance or driving feel
__________________
J08M3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2011, 01:59 PM   #22
///M Ryder
Grown Azz Man
 
///M Ryder's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.5 Dinan ///M3
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sugar Land

Posts: 2,463
iTrader: (5)

Ask your tuner to re-flash your car or find a Dinan dealer......problem solved............Phil
__________________
2011.5 E92 Dinan///M3: SSII DCT- Comp, Prem 2, and Conv Pkg, Heated Seats, Enhanced Prem Sound, Edition Grills/Gills, M Performance Steering Wheel, Carbon Fiber Performance Spoiler, BMW Pedals, Dinan Exhaust, Dinan X-Pipe, Dinan Carbon Fiber Intake, Dinan Software Tune, Dinan DCT Tune, Dinan Pulley Kit, Dinan CH-R Wheels, Dinan Carbon Fiber Strut Tower Braces, Arkym Lip, IND M5 Mirror Caps, Carbon Reflectors, Lux H8 V3, Brembo 365mm BBK
///M Ryder is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:37 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST