BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
GT Haus
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-16-2011, 09:54 PM   #111
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
mastek's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,595
Posts

 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
Track/Course: AAA Autoclub speedway (Fontana) "Roval" ACC
Best Lap Time: 1:52.782
Brakes: AP BBK
Tires (Size & Model): Hankook RS3 285/35/18
Suspension: Moton CS
Other Mods: front lip, rear wing, catback
Great Lap Time. Fastest I've seen with a modded e9xm3 on R-Comps
I was there for 2 sessions in the Red e36m3 -- doing a shakedown -- so no laptimes
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2011, 04:35 AM   #112
wwjd15
Banned
United_States
23
Rep
1,322
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E92 M3 MR
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Orange County

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Great Lap Time. Fastest I've seen with a modded e9xm3 on R-Comps
I was there for 2 sessions in the Red e36m3 -- doing a shakedown -- so no laptimes
RS3 isn't R-comps. lol.
Never seen your e36, please come and say hi next time!
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2011, 08:20 PM   #113
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
mastek's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,595
Posts

 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
RS3 isn't R-comps. lol.
Never seen your e36, please come and say hi next time!
Thats even better.
I walked the whole paddock and said hi to alot of ppl on Saturday and only saw ur car when we were leaving.
We met b4 at Buttonwillow.
What pads r u running?
What is ur speed/gear between Turns 1-2?
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2011, 05:56 AM   #114
wwjd15
Banned
United_States
23
Rep
1,322
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E92 M3 MR
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Orange County

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Thats even better.
I walked the whole paddock and said hi to alot of ppl on Saturday and only saw ur car when we were leaving.
We met b4 at Buttonwillow.
What pads r u running?
What is ur speed/gear between Turns 1-2?
Yes I remember, but I have never seen your car. lol
I'm running Mintex pads, F3R and Extreme. The best lap time was in 6rd and around 130 mph. If I have completed my aero and suspension tuning earlier, the car should be able to stay in 5rd gear and 140 mph + during turn 1-2. But my power steer died before I had chance to try.
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2011, 10:47 PM   #115
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Kind of speaking to the previous discussion on this thread regarding power/weight and lap times. Here are a couple of my recent lap times in my E30 M3 GTS3 220whp racecar, which is ~200lbs heavy with respect to the GTS4 cutoff (I will pick up some more power and lose weight after sorting out the transmission which blew in my first race ever).

Track/Course: NJMP Thunderbolt
Best Lap Time: 1:32.8
Brakes: Wilwood
Tires (Size & Model): NT-01 with lots of heat cycles
Suspension: Bilstein GruppeN
Other Mods: ...

Track/Course: NJMP Lightning
Best Lap Time: 1:15.6
Brakes: Wilwood
Tires (Size & Model): Hankook Z214 medium compound DOT
Suspension: Bilstein GruppeN
Other Mods: ...

Seasoned E30 M3 racers say that the E36 M3 will pull away from the E30 due to higher low end torque (assuming well optimized cars for power/weight in GTS3). The runner ups I've seen are well worked up E36 M3s and they were about 2 sec faster than I am at Lightning (but I am heavy and my GruppeN suspension is pretty dated, but then, I am not in the fastest and most developed region either). I hear the dynamic is similar in other regions. I also hear the new winning setup is to enter GTS3 with an E46 M3, which have been reported to be about 2s faster than E36 M3s at Mid Ohio.

So although I think power/weight is a great first order parameter to consider for lap times and puts cars kind of within a reasonably tight range, it is not a very precise equalizer.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2011, 10:40 AM   #116
the///Mthree
First Lieutenant
7
Rep
351
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Black Edition
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Kind of speaking to the previous discussion on this thread regarding power/weight and lap times. Here are a couple of my recent lap times in my E30 M3 GTS3 220whp racecar, which is ~200lbs heavy with respect to the GTS4 cutoff (I will pick up some more power and lose weight after sorting out the transmission which blew in my first race ever).

Track/Course: NJMP Thunderbolt
Best Lap Time: 1:32.8
Brakes: Wilwood
Tires (Size & Model): NT-01 with lots of heat cycles
Suspension: Bilstein GruppeN
Other Mods: ...

Track/Course: NJMP Lightning
Best Lap Time: 1:15.6
Brakes: Wilwood
Tires (Size & Model): Hankook Z214 medium compound DOT
Suspension: Bilstein GruppeN
Other Mods: ...

Seasoned E30 M3 racers say that the E36 M3 will pull away from the E30 due to higher low end torque (assuming well optimized cars for power/weight in GTS3). The runner ups I've seen are well worked up E36 M3s and they were about 2 sec faster than I am at Lightning (but I am heavy and my GruppeN suspension is pretty dated, but then, I am not in the fastest and most developed region either). I hear the dynamic is similar in other regions. I also hear the new winning setup is to enter GTS3 with an E46 M3, which have been reported to be about 2s faster than E36 M3s at Mid Ohio.

So although I think power/weight is a great first order parameter to consider for lap times and puts cars kind of within a reasonably tight range, it is not a very precise equalizer.
Both of those tracks definitely reward handling more than they do power. I did a low 1:34 on thunderbolt in a E92 M3 with michelin supersports
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2011, 10:50 AM   #117
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the///Mthree View Post
Both of those tracks definitely reward handling more than they do power. I did a low 1:34 on thunderbolt in a E92 M3 with michelin supersports
So far, my observation is that the E30 M3 (as described above) is faster than a stock E92 M3 on any of the tracks I've been to (with me as the driver although I feel more comfortable pushing the E30 with the cage and safety gear), which includes the Glen. I don't have numbers to back up the Glen times in the E30 (GPS was not installed), but I am cross referencing from other drivers who told me they were turning 2:16 laps in other cars which were slower. But I suspect the gap does increase on tighter tracks such as NHMS.
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2011, 12:09 PM   #118
the///Mthree
First Lieutenant
7
Rep
351
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Black Edition
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
So far, my observation is that the E30 M3 (as described above) is faster than a stock E92 M3 on any of the tracks I've been to (with me as the driver although I feel more comfortable pushing the E30 with the cage and safety gear), which includes the Glen. I don't have numbers to back up the Glen times in the E30 (GPS was not installed), but I am cross referencing from other drivers who told me they were turning 2:16 laps in other cars which were slower. But I suspect the gap does increase on tighter tracks such as NHMS.
I would agree with you that the E30 will be faster on nearly any track. I just meant that it will be an even bigger gap to the E92 at a tighter track, but you already know that.

I think a relatively stock E92 is capable of 2:11 at the glen
Appreciate 0
      08-20-2011, 12:57 PM   #119
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the///Mthree View Post
I think a relatively stock E92 is capable of 2:11 at the glen
With DCT probably. Would have to be driven pretty aggressively with 6MT IMO.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-21-2011, 09:11 PM   #120
quads
Lieutenant Colonel
31
Rep
1,646
Posts

 
Drives: bac mono
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: racetrack

iTrader: (3)

Track/Course: Roebling Road 8/21/2011
Best Lap Time: 1:26.3
Brake Pads: Cobalt XR1 / XR3
Tires (Size & Model): 275/35/18 285/35/18
Suspension: GC camber plates, sport springs
Other Mods: borla exhaust

Can someone put all these into a google document and share it?
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2011, 03:01 PM   #121
Dustin@AEp
Captain
United_States
20
Rep
625
Posts

 
Drives: BMW E92 M3
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Southern California

iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to Dustin@AEp
Track/Course: Fontana Roval ACC
Best Lap Time: 1:57.110
Brakes: Stock
Tires (Size & Model): Hankook RS-3 265/35 285/35
Suspension: H&R springs
Other Mods: ...
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2011, 08:24 PM   #122
klammer
Brigadier General
40
Rep
3,244
Posts

 
Drives: 11 spc gry m3 e90, 07 X5
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: chicago

iTrader: (0)

Finally a time i can live with

Autobahn CC

Best time 2:51

Alcon 384/370 BBK carbotech xp20f, xp10r

Yoko AD08 265/19/30, 295/19/30

Dinan stg. 3

Akra full, 3.45 diff.
__________________
mods: akra evo, dinan 3.45 diff, ess akra tune, dinan stg.3, Alcon bbk, HRE P40

Last edited by klammer; 06-11-2012 at 06:05 PM.
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2011, 03:53 PM   #123
dcgolfdr
Wheelsucker
dcgolfdr's Avatar
United_States
18
Rep
1,026
Posts

 
Drives: M3 and a truck
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Arlington, VA

iTrader: (11)

Track: VIR full
Best Time: 2:21
Brakes: Carbotech XP-10
Tires: Hankook RS-3 275/35/18 285/35/18
Suspension: Dinan Stage 3
Other: Exhaust, filter, Dinan tune
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2011, 05:02 AM   #124
paradocs98
Major
paradocs98's Avatar
United_States
31
Rep
1,347
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 991 Carrera S
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Kind of speaking to the previous discussion on this thread regarding power/weight and lap times. Here are a couple of my recent lap times in my E30 M3 GTS3 220whp racecar, which is ~200lbs heavy with respect to the GTS4 cutoff (I will pick up some more power and lose weight after sorting out the transmission which blew in my first race ever).

Track/Course: NJMP Thunderbolt
Best Lap Time: 1:32.8
Brakes: Wilwood
Tires (Size & Model): NT-01 with lots of heat cycles
Suspension: Bilstein GruppeN
Other Mods: ...

Track/Course: NJMP Lightning
Best Lap Time: 1:15.6
Brakes: Wilwood
Tires (Size & Model): Hankook Z214 medium compound DOT
Suspension: Bilstein GruppeN
Other Mods: ....
Nice to see some numbers for tracks in the Northeast! I'm just advancing from beginner to intermediate, as evidenced by my times:

NJMP Thunderbolt
1:45
StopTech ST60/ST40 BBK
Nitto NT01 275/35-18 all around
Dinan Stage 3 suspension
Other: Child seats and sippy cups removed
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2011, 07:47 AM   #125
leo95se
Lieutenant
United_States
7
Rep
494
Posts

 
Drives: 09 JB e92, Q5 and passat
Join Date: May 2009
Location: CT

iTrader: (1)

Regarding the e30/6 vs e92 discussion,I do agree the e36 is a very capable track car. I haven't seen any e30s take the lead though, typically 3-5 secs slower in the NASA, BMW and scda races I've seen. They are both very different from the heavy e92. More tossable and a good amount smaller/more nimble.

However, I have only seen one track prepped e92, the black and red one the polish guy with NASA drives. He is substantially faster than the 30/6's. Otherwise,it seem all other comparisons are against stock e92s. Lucid have you been up against prepped ones?
I think it would be interesting to see what happens when people start spending money on them, I think they still cost too much and so aren't as popular yet. Seems like a difficult comparison to me, but granted I haven't seen all but one built e92.
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2011, 08:12 AM   #126
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo95se View Post
However, I have only seen one track prepped e92, the black and red one the polish guy with NASA drives. He is substantially faster than the 30/6's. Otherwise,it seem all other comparisons are against stock e92s. Lucid have you been up against prepped ones?.
I think the E92 M3 racecar you referenced is in GTS4, and my little E30 M3 will be no match for it with its power/weight ratio.

US spec S52 based E36 M3s racecars fall into GTS4 or GTS3 depending on level of development (mainly power). My guess is that an E92 M3 will be faster than an E36 M3 in GTS4 at the same power/weight with similar suspension and aero upgrades.

GTS power/weight classification calculator is here: http://www.nasagts.com/2009/01/gts-c...alculator.html
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2011, 06:55 AM   #127
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
mastek's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,595
Posts

 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo95se View Post
Regarding the e30/6 vs e92 discussion,I do agree the e36 is a very capable track car. I haven't seen any e30s take the lead though, typically 3-5 secs slower in the NASA, BMW and scda races I've seen. They are both very different from the heavy e92. More tossable and a good amount smaller/more nimble.

However, I have only seen one track prepped e92, the black and red one the polish guy with NASA drives. He is substantially faster than the 30/6's. Otherwise,it seem all other comparisons are against stock e92s. Lucid have you been up against prepped ones?
I think it would be interesting to see what happens when people start spending money on them, I think they still cost too much and so aren't as popular yet. Seems like a difficult comparison to me, but granted I haven't seen all but one built e92.
U can get an e36 down to 2500 lbs and 300 whp for about $35k
U can get an e92 down to 2900 lbs and 360 whp for about $80k

Those numbers make no sense = there is no way 60whp beats 400lbs around any track.
And why would you want to spend twice the money to go slower?
Of course, u can pour $30k into suspension and suspension/chassis tuning into either cars ....but id rather be pulling 2G thru a corner in a lighter car.

Both the e36 and e46 make more race-financial sense then an e92 race prep.
And you'll see S65 engines in e36 and e46 going faster then in any e92.
It took Grand-Am Koni/Conti Challenge 2 yrs to make the e92 faster then the e46 ... and that was only after all the big teams phased out their e46 program and moved into the e92 at a massive cost increase.

Its not until you get into the $150k range that the e92/s65 race prep can compete and dominate the BMW race prep category. 2800 lbs 420 rwhp and a massive suspension.
But then, at the comparable $150k ... the Vipers and Vettes will leave you behind.
So bottom line = if u want to amateur/club race (budget) ....then the e36/e46 makes much more sense.

As far as best w2w bang for the buck = Spec Miata or if ur a BMW guy, E30spec is a great class. Lots of competition. Cheap parts. Great w2w learning experience.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2011, 11:59 AM   #128
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Mastek, what I do know is that new E46 M3 builds (which I assume have more weight and power than US spec S52 E36 M3s) are gapping the 08 GTS3 national champion's E36s times by about 2 seconds at mid Ohio. I am also assuming the cars are all well optimized for the GTS3 power/weight cutoff. The 08 champ himself is reportedly saying he can't compete with those times in his E36 M3. Appearently, the owners of the new E46M3 builds used to compete in GTS3 with E36 M3s before, so they moved away from those cars in favor of the E46 M3.
__________________

Last edited by lucid; 09-03-2011 at 12:05 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2011, 01:15 PM   #129
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
mastek's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,595
Posts

 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Mastek, what I do know is that new E46 M3 builds (which I assume have more weight and power than US spec S52 E36 M3s) are gapping the 08 GTS3 national champion's E36s times by about 2 seconds at mid Ohio. I am also assuming the cars are all well optimized for the GTS3 power/weight cutoff. The 08 champ himself is reportedly saying he can't compete with those times in his E36 M3. Appearently, the owners of the new E46M3 builds used to compete in GTS3 with E36 M3s before, so they moved away from those cars in favor of the E46 M3.
This is true - and is mainly due to the tire width limitation of the e36.
Which u dont have to worry about if u have an e36 widebody
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2011, 01:55 PM   #130
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
This is true - and is mainly due to the tire width limitation of the e36.
Which u dont have to worry about if u have an e36 widebody
I hear you, but I am not convinced that explains the 2 seconds. Pretty hard to pin the cause and effect down in GTS given suspension and aero are free, but one must assume these guys are doing whatever they can to make the cars perform at that level.

Btw, do you have an e36 widebody?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2011, 07:44 PM   #131
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
mastek's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,595
Posts

 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I hear you, but I am not convinced that explains the 2 seconds. Pretty hard to pin the cause and effect down in GTS given suspension and aero are free, but one must assume these guys are doing whatever they can to make the cars perform at that level.

Btw, do you have an e36 widebody?
What 2 seconds?
There are so many variables... but for the sake of this discussion.. lets say u have an e36 and an e46 both with a $20k 4-way suspension/chassis tune, same brakes, same rwhp.
With a pro driver and all else equal - the lighter car should put down the better lap time.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2011, 07:56 PM   #132
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
What 2 seconds?
There are so many variables... but for the sake of this discussion.. lets say u have an e36 and an e46 both with a $20k 4-way suspension/chassis tune, same brakes, same rwhp.
With a pro driver and all else equal - the lighter car should put down the better lap time.
I was referring to my previous post where the GTS3 national champ in the E36 was getting gapped by 2 sec by others in E46s. In that they case, they don't have the same whp or weight, but should have similar weight/whp. Anyway, this is probably taking the thread off topic. Don't mean to thread jack...
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST