BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-28-2007, 05:55 PM   #23
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
LOL

Despite the fact that the world's most successful race cars (in all series where FI is not banned) and high performance piston planes are all forced induction, the "magical" NA crowd rears its head once again.

And what high revving NA engine? My GSXR race bike spun to 14K, and the Yammy's were spinning to 17.5K. My Ducati twin was a low revver and it had a redline much higher than the M3.

yeah, there's lots of turbo cars in pro racing...... maybe the turbodiesel audi's in the ALMS but not much else.

and planes pretty much use jet engines now

bike engines are so much smaller than car engines, that's the main reason they can rev so much higher, redline is determined by the max speed of the piston, and when the stroke is shorter, you can rev higher.

you can't compare bike engines to car engines unless your car displaces 1 liter or less (geo metro)
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:25 PM   #24
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
22
Rep
1,330
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
yeah, there's lots of turbo cars in pro racing...... maybe the turbodiesel audi's in the ALMS but not much else.

and planes pretty much use jet engines now

bike engines are so much smaller than car engines, that's the main reason they can rev so much higher, redline is determined by the max speed of the piston, and when the stroke is shorter, you can rev higher.

you can't compare bike engines to car engines unless your car displaces 1 liter or less (geo metro)
This whole post is a

Since you apparently need a history lesson, here's a few links:

http://www.f1express.com/70faq.shtml#r31

http://www.f1-grandprix.com/history5.html (turbos since banned because they are too powerful)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_956 (most succesful road racer of all time)
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:26 PM   #25
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
22
Rep
1,330
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
Brilliant. I love when people compare bikes to cars.
Yeah, road cars are 20 years behind in technology versus Sport Bikes.
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:30 PM   #26
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Yeah, cars are 20 years behind in technology.
really you have no idea why a bike can redline at 16K while cars can only rev at half that (for the most part)

you should hit the books, maybe google something and learn why a bike motor can rev so much higher. (hint, I told you why above)

one thing I do like though, bikes keep getting lighter and quicker, cars just keep getting heavier
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:32 PM   #27
just4kickz
boku no namae ha...
United_States
134
Rep
11,038
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 BS 330i
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: S. Bay Area, CA + Newark, NJ + ChiCity + True Blue

iTrader: (11)

Garage List
2006 E90 330i  [0.00]
i havent read most of the posts... but to add...

realistically the majority of buyers buy the car because they like the car and don't see why they have to "improve" the aesethics, sound, or performance. looking at the stock#s... the M3>335i...--haha this totally reminds me of ward (not a bad thing)

if i were to buy a M3... i don't think i'd add anything more than tint...
__________________
looking for a PreLCI Black Sapphire e90 front bumper without license plate holes

"Akimbo shotguns. Broken wrists anyone? And don't give me that 'it's just a game' bull****. Where the **** are my akimbo interventions then?! One scope on each eye mother****er!!"
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:36 PM   #28
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
This whole post is a

Since you apparently need a history lesson, here's a couple of links:

http://www.f1express.com/70faq.shtml#r31

http://www.f1-grandprix.com/history5.html (turbos since banned because they are too powerful)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_956 (most succesful road racer of all time)

did you drive your delorean to go track that stuff down?

thing have changed a bit in the last 30 years

who races with a turbo NOW? besides the diesel audi's...
I'm not the biggest racing enthusiast, but I can't think of any major series that includes turbo cars, if you'd like to enlighten me I'll gladly listen, but turbo's in racing (real racing not track days) seem to be very uncommon to me

edit: just though, drifting and rally racing may be places to see turbo's used in racing, and oh yeah, um tractor pulls and dragsters (the top fuel/funny cars)

any others though? road racing anywhere?
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:46 PM   #29
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
22
Rep
1,330
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
really you have no idea why a bike can redline at 16K while cars can only rev at half that (for the most part)

you should hit the books, maybe google something and learn why a bike motor can rev so much higher. (hint, I told you why above)

one thing I do like though, bikes keep getting lighter and quicker, cars just keep getting heavier
Oh, ok...

I suppose the forged pistons and crankshafts and titanium valves and 1 piece blocks have nothing to do with their redlines.

Nah...

Now to make your argument for you, you could say but yeah they only last 15-25K miles due to the extremely tight tolerances and high reving stresses. But then again at <$10K per copy...
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:48 PM   #30
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
22
Rep
1,330
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
did you drive your delorean to go track that stuff down?

thing have changed a bit in the last 30 years

who races with a turbo NOW? besides the diesel audi's...
I'm not the biggest racing enthusiast, but I can't think of any major series that includes turbo cars, if you'd like to enlighten me I'll gladly listen, but turbo's in racing (real racing not track days) seem to be very uncommon to me

edit: just though, drifting and rally racing may be places to see turbo's used in racing, and oh yeah, um tractor pulls and dragsters (the top fuel/funny cars)

any others though? road racing anywhere?
They were banned as too fast and with too much HP in most series. Turbos are a superior technology. So unless you are making the argument that you don't want HP, your argument is moot.

Take way the turbo ban and next year the grid is full of turbos, guaranteed.
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 07:55 PM   #31
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Oh, ok...

I suppose the forged pistons and crankshafts and titanium valves and 1 piece blocks have nothing to do with their redlines.

Nah...

Now to make your argument for you, you could say but yeah they only last 15-25K miles due to the extremely tight tolerances and high reving stresses. But then again at <$10K per copy...
the quality componants are a big factory in high revving, the other big factor is the geometry of the engine.

the speed of the piston is a major factor in how high the motor can rev

in an engine with a longer stroke the piston has to travel farther per revolution, so it's traveling faster than a motor with a shorter stroke turning the same speed.

shorter stroke allows bike engines to rev higher than car engines

gsxr-600 Bore Stroke: 67.0 x 42.5mm (stroke about 2")
335 Bore/stroke 3.31x3.53 inch

that's a big part of why the bike can rev higher, it's not that they just put expensive high quality components in the bike and it magically was able to rev to 17,000 rpms
Appreciate 0
      05-28-2007, 09:21 PM   #32
hotrod2448
grand poobah
hotrod2448's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
2,015
Posts

 
Drives: E70 X5 SG, F10 535i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 335d  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
did you drive your delorean to go track that stuff down?

thing have changed a bit in the last 30 years

who races with a turbo NOW? besides the diesel audi's...
I'm not the biggest racing enthusiast, but I can't think of any major series that includes turbo cars, if you'd like to enlighten me I'll gladly listen, but turbo's in racing (real racing not track days) seem to be very uncommon to me

edit: just though, drifting and rally racing may be places to see turbo's used in racing, and oh yeah, um tractor pulls and dragsters (the top fuel/funny cars)

any others though? road racing anywhere?
Top fuel cars use superchargers not turbos. I believe they still run them at Le Man on several vehicles. Like Porsches for example.

As the guy said most series have banned turbos because it is way too easy to make a ridiculous amount of power and too hard to apply rules that limit the power. When F1 cars were making 1500hp in qualifying trim on 1.6 litre motors they decided that was enough.

Cart thought they had it figured out with a maximum boost pressure until they realized the teams were blowing the intake charge across the face of the boost sensor at high velocity. There fore decreasing the pressure the sensor read and in effect cheating the system.

There also aren't many series that allow active suspension, traction control, or yaw control. So, are those bad too?
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 04:25 PM   #33
sdyck
Private
0
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 335XI
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Lots will be sold in Calagary

Quote:
Originally Posted by achien View Post
According to my sales advisor, it is always difficult to sell the M3s here in Canada.

However, M3 is a like cult and there are still, however minimal, a bunch of devolted customers willing to pay any price for a M'er.
There will be tons sold in Calagary. The cash in this town is sick, Bently has opened a dealership and sold 3x there expected annual sales in the first month.
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 06:53 PM   #34
Dammmittt
My favorite sign.
Dammmittt's Avatar
South Korea
65
Rep
4,332
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 M Coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Der Autobahnen

iTrader: (0)

2 things.

1. Ward I agree that it sux that cars keep getting heavier, but all the safety and "luxury" components that people like...keep adding weight

2. The thread is supposed to be about the M3 and 335i. And I thank everyone who posted on topic, I would have gotten an M3 if they hadn't stopped making them when I needed to get a car. All things considered i think it worked out awesome for me anyway.

Thanks for the comments, I think the first couple years will be telling for the E9x M3. It'll probably come down to price and the people who have the money and are willing to get one.
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 07:24 PM   #35
BMW F22
Major General
BMW F22's Avatar
United_States
216
Rep
8,400
Posts

 
Drives: ///M235i
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Around the Bay

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
BMW will have no problem selling the new M3 because the M3 is an exclusive car. People will buy the new M3 simply because it's an M3.

Is the 335i upgradable to match the performance of the new M3?
Yes, I'm sure it is!....BUT,

All the mods needed to upgrade the 335 to the performance of the new M3 (track and drag) will cost plenty of money and at the end of the day...you might as well buy the new M3 (assuming the MSRP will start around $55K as predicted!).

Procede, LSD, Full Exhaust, Intake, Suspensions etc...
So you have $5300 dollars in mods right there....

An M3 will always be an M3!!


I just realized (based on this post) that maybe the reason BMW made the 335 so fast and comparable to the M3 is so that more people will lean toward it and not the M3. This in turn would make the M3 even more exclusive and BMW will be able to charge more for them.

The keyword here is "exclusive". The higher the MSRP is for the M3 and the more 335s they sell, the more exclusive the M3 becomes.
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 07:33 PM   #36
Dammmittt
My favorite sign.
Dammmittt's Avatar
South Korea
65
Rep
4,332
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 M Coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Der Autobahnen

iTrader: (0)

Yeah...here's a good board room discussion to have. Hey boss...lets give the 335 some more power so that we can raise the price on M3s. That way we sell more 335s and make more off of the people who buy M3s. APPROVED
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 08:04 PM   #37
ovrkll
Lieutenant
ovrkll's Avatar
4
Rep
411
Posts

 
Drives: Interlagos Blue Z4M
Join Date: May 2007
Location: McDonough, GA

iTrader: (0)

I think it was more of a way to get the older M3 owners to convert over to the more expensive/exclusive new M3. BMW has made it known over the years that they want their clients to trade up with each new car purchase, not just stay in the same series.
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 08:33 PM   #38
T Bone
Brigadier General
T Bone's Avatar
145
Rep
4,021
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWE90 View Post
I just realized (based on this post) that maybe the reason BMW made the 335 so fast and comparable to the M3 is so that more people will lean toward it and not the M3. This in turn would make the M3 even more exclusive and BMW will be able to charge more for them.

The keyword here is "exclusive". The higher the MSRP is for the M3 and the more 335s they sell, the more exclusive the M3 becomes.
BMW always pushes the next level up....

Remember when the E46 330i came out? The performance was right around the E36 M3's. Now the 335i is right on top of the E46 M3.

M3 owners are the pawns of BMW.....sometimes, they are willing pawns.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 09:03 PM   #39
ovrkll
Lieutenant
ovrkll's Avatar
4
Rep
411
Posts

 
Drives: Interlagos Blue Z4M
Join Date: May 2007
Location: McDonough, GA

iTrader: (0)

Is this why you have an M6?
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 09:07 PM   #40
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BMW always pushes the next level up....

Remember when the E46 330i came out? The performance was right around the E36 M3's.
no it wasn't, the E36 M3 was still way faster then the e46 330

hell the E36 M3 was still faster than the E90 330
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 10:14 PM   #41
T Bone
Brigadier General
T Bone's Avatar
145
Rep
4,021
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
no it wasn't, the E36 M3 was still way faster then the e46 330

hell the E36 M3 was still faster than the E90 330

???

E46 330i vs. E36 M3

http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.ph...ame=Compare%21

Right on top of each other.

I remember I was pretty annoyed when they put a 3 series right on top of the M3....I had to get the new E46 M3. The BMW Jedi mind trick has worked on me.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari

Last edited by T Bone; 05-29-2007 at 10:34 PM.
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 10:46 PM   #42
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

"drag times" factor in things like driver skill.

I'd rather see mag claims, or factory claims as they take the driver skill out of the equation

most 0-60 on E36 M3 range from 5.4-5.7 sec
E46 330 6.1 sec
E90 330 was at about 6 flat as well from my brief searches
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 10:51 PM   #43
T Bone
Brigadier General
T Bone's Avatar
145
Rep
4,021
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
"drag times" factor in things like driver skill.

I'd rather see mag claims, or factory claims as they take the driver skill out of the equation

most 0-60 on E36 M3 range from 5.4-5.7 sec
E46 330 6.1 sec
E90 330 was at about 6 flat as well from my brief searches
0.3 seconds means it is a drivers' "race"....0.3 seconds is about the accepted gap between the 335i and the E46 M3. Improve the breed yes but M3 owners are compelled to upgrade lest a woman with big hair and Paris Hilton sunglasses beats down an unsuspecting M3 owner.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
Appreciate 0
      05-29-2007, 10:53 PM   #44
ward
Major General
70
Rep
6,162
Posts

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T

iTrader: (0)

I think the gap between E36 M3 and E46 330 is larger than the gap between E46 M3 and 335

either way though, the new M3 is going to have to be a beast
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:24 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST