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      08-01-2011, 03:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
Uggh. You have no idea what you're talking about .
++1. There is some serious denial going on here....it's almost laughable. People making up up BS again about a car they have probably never driven. No one wants to believe Nissan built an amazing car. I guess the M3s used in Car and Driver comparison tests were also tuned.
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      08-01-2011, 10:34 PM   #68
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Singletrack... I think it just comes down to Imports of all makes (Japan/Euro/Italian) can't make a stick that compares to how the American manufactures do them. The first 2 of 3 examples you shared, I've driven, and they were crap and worse than the M3 IMO as well...

The best Manual Trans I can remember was actually my '89 C4 Corvette... with the ZF German made gearbox, that trans was butter... and missed shifts were none existent, as was the ability to powershift (no lift) every gear, and never grind a gear... Not sure how they could get that trans so 'right' and all the euro stuff today now so wrong... personally, it's probably more 'linkage' setups than the actual trans itself, as it seems they are no longer attached to the actual transcase like back then?

But (IMO) the euro and jap manuals just feel loose and a bit 'disconnected' from the rest of the chassis, in my track experience.

I was a die-hard manual guy... and both my dedicated track cars still are... but only due to two main reasons: a.) they're older... 3rd & 4th Gen F-Body's.. so no DCT stuff in dem days! b.) It seems the DCT cars are having a tough time with heating issues on track... fine for a few track days here and there... but not yet up to the task of full on races, whereas the standard manuals don't generate the same heat... in the 'retail/general public' vehicles. Purpose built Race Duty, PDK/DCT and others are fine... but we aren't getting anything close to those in production cars yet.

All my street cars are now DCT cars... as once you 'admit' how they can do everything so much better, they can be quite enjoyable to drive every day... whether like an old man, or on a spirited jaunt!

I don't expect to convert anyone... it took me YEARS to finally give in.. but once I purchased my SMG M5... it was obvious... even that prehistoric beginning of DCT today... was so intoxicating in S6 DSC off going through gears on the track/street etc...

The one recommendation I can make to any 'hard-core' 6 speed enthusiasts... is if you'd like to give a DCT/SMG a fair shake... be sure to have all traction controls disabled... and trans in absolute fastest/race position... then drive around... even part throttle like you 'normally' would... and feel how connected everything feels... then do some spirited driving as well... and then you may think different.

Peace,
Dave
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      08-01-2011, 10:44 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
On my first test drive of an Evo VIII, on the first corner as we exited the dealer's lot, I had the car in a beautiful 4 wheel drift. My wife shot me this incredibly admiring and incredulous glance. I could have taken the credit, but that wasn't me by any shot - it was the clever AWD doing the heavy lifting, and I was just there for the ride.

It was the same thing all over in the GT-R, just happening at a higher rate of speed.

To be totally honest I get more thrills out of driving my 93 Miata on the same fast & winding roads. I just sneak out of the house at night, drop the top and terrorize the night insects with my 100BHP monster lol.
I was with you till the Miata comment! LOL (Just kidding!)

Trust me... in my days racing in Touring 2... I HATED watching these guys in their unlimted Boost, AWD subi's & Evo's... take corners absolutely ASS BACKWARDS... and just full on counter lock the wheel... foot to the floor, and just pull out ahead, while I was having to 'moderate' throttle, and actually drive the 'line' unwind the wheel etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
A lot of people complain about BMW's manual transmission and I'm sure there's a lot to criticize, but a funny thing happens with it on track - it just seems to get out of the way and just lets you do your thing.
Yes... because on the 'road course' you never need to shift 1st to 2nd... (a huge weakness in the trans)... and also because on a road course, 'smooth consistency' is far more valuable than absolute speed... but I finally got sick and tired of my M3 Manual, grinding under the occasional freeway 'race' encounter from even 3 to 4... that I had to move on... just couldn't accept it in a $60K car IMO
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      08-01-2011, 11:01 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
I was with you till the Miata comment! LOL (Just kidding!)

Trust me... in my days racing in Touring 2... I HATED watching these guys in their unlimted Boost, AWD subi's & Evo's... take corners absolutely ASS BACKWARDS... and just full on counter lock the wheel... foot to the floor, and just pull out ahead, while I was having to 'moderate' throttle, and actually drive the 'line' unwind the wheel etc..



Yes... because on the 'road course' you never need to shift 1st to 2nd... (a huge weakness in the trans)... and also because on a road course, 'smooth consistency' is far more valuable than absolute speed... but I finally got sick and tired of my M3 Manual, grinding under the occasional freeway 'race' encounter from even 3 to 4... that I had to move on... just couldn't accept it in a $60K car IMO
There was something wrong with your transmission because I routinely redline from 3rd to 4th and have NEVER had a grind.
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      08-01-2011, 11:16 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Singletrack... I think it just comes down to Imports of all makes (Japan/Euro/Italian) can't make a stick that compares to how the American manufactures do them. The first 2 of 3 examples you shared, I've driven, and they were crap and worse than the M3 IMO as well...

The best Manual Trans I can remember was actually my '89 C4 Corvette... with the ZF German made gearbox, that trans was butter... and missed shifts were none existent, as was the ability to powershift (no lift) every gear, and never grind a gear... Not sure how they could get that trans so 'right' and all the euro stuff today now so wrong... personally, it's probably more 'linkage' setups than the actual trans itself, as it seems they are no longer attached to the actual transcase like back then?

But (IMO) the euro and jap manuals just feel loose and a bit 'disconnected' from the rest of the chassis, in my track experience.

I was a die-hard manual guy... and both my dedicated track cars still are... but only due to two main reasons: a.) they're older... 3rd & 4th Gen F-Body's.. so no DCT stuff in dem days! b.) It seems the DCT cars are having a tough time with heating issues on track... fine for a few track days here and there... but not yet up to the task of full on races, whereas the standard manuals don't generate the same heat... in the 'retail/general public' vehicles. Purpose built Race Duty, PDK/DCT and others are fine... but we aren't getting anything close to those in production cars yet.

All my street cars are now DCT cars... as once you 'admit' how they can do everything so much better, they can be quite enjoyable to drive every day... whether like an old man, or on a spirited jaunt!

I don't expect to convert anyone... it took me YEARS to finally give in.. but once I purchased my SMG M5... it was obvious... even that prehistoric beginning of DCT today... was so intoxicating in S6 DSC off going through gears on the track/street etc...

The one recommendation I can make to any 'hard-core' 6 speed enthusiasts... is if you'd like to give a DCT/SMG a fair shake... be sure to have all traction controls disabled... and trans in absolute fastest/race position... then drive around... even part throttle like you 'normally' would... and feel how connected everything feels... then do some spirited driving as well... and then you may think different.

Peace,
Dave
I never said I didn't like Dct/pdk/etc, I just didn't want one. I still like to use a clutch. I probably won't pick up an "auto" until the 430s come down in price further. But things change so who knows.

If you think the STi 6sp sucks, then we are just on different planets. If the only reference is a 89 vette then I'm afraid I can't relate. Sounds like there were problems with your m3 tranny which sucks and is frustrating, but I can assure you that I have no such issue. A ssk also makes it much more precise and I do think the stock throws are too long and sloppy, although smooth with the exception of 1st to 2nd.
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      08-02-2011, 12:09 AM   #72
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STI comment was harsh... maybe not sucks... just not 'solid' ... the '89 corvette reference is dated... but was only to make a point that Germans have made awesome manual transmissions... go drive a newer Z-06 or Viper gearbox... and you'll see what I mean... they are for more 'solid' feeling and precise when compared to the M3.

I did complain about my M3 shifting... and had the entire clutch/pressure plate & flywheel replaced... but didn't do anything.... it's the long throws... and just design of the trans... IMO
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      08-02-2011, 07:14 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post
I seriously doubt that is a stock GTR. I'm 100% certain it was overboosted by nissan before given to TG. As was the case with the McLaren MP4-12c. Since millions of people around the world watch TG, the power lap times have become like the bible of car performance. So why wouldn't any manufacturer with a FI car, not tweak it for more power????

Pretty much every magazine comparo I've read between McLaren and F458, has the 458 on top, including the track times.
I think you're onto something.

I heard that Nissan was using orphan tears as fuel & unicorn blood as lubricant.

If true this is just plain unfair.
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      08-02-2011, 12:20 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
To be totally honest I get more thrills out of driving my 93 Miata on the same fast & winding roads. I just sneak out of the house at night, drop the top and terrorize the night insects with my 100BHP monster lol.
Some great points you made there. My STi was really quick but never gave me that overall feeling of impending doom. The M3 at redline terrifies me and that's what keeps me going back for more. Sounds lame, but whatever floats your boat right? Turbos and AWD are quiet, boring, and don't require the finesse and sensitivity of a high-strung RWD platform.
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      08-03-2011, 12:37 AM   #75
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Wow.. very impressive
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      08-05-2011, 04:33 PM   #76
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I am basically allergic to anything but a stick shift but spending time in both the DCT and 6 speed variants of the M3 it's clear that DCT is superior. The shifter in the M3 is too long and mushy.

The best shifter's I've ever used:

-Honda S2000
-Miata
-Mitsubishi Evo 8 and 10
-350Z (1 redeeming quality of that terrible car)

STi shifters are terrible. Corvettes are OK. The one in my Mustang is a little better. DCT in the M3 is sublime. I don't care if it is "cheating", it's just as involving as any manual and anyone who tells you differently has some sort of strange left foot fetish going on.
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      08-06-2011, 01:24 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefBringer View Post
I am basically allergic to anything but a stick shift but spending time in both the DCT and 6 speed variants of the M3 it's clear that DCT is superior. The shifter in the M3 is too long and mushy.

The best shifter's I've ever used:

-Honda S2000
-Miata
-Mitsubishi Evo 8 and 10
-350Z (1 redeeming quality of that terrible car)

STi shifters are terrible. Corvettes are OK. The one in my Mustang is a little better. DCT in the M3 is sublime. I don't care if it is "cheating", it's just as involving as any manual and anyone who tells you differently has some sort of strange left foot fetish going on.
+1 on pretty much everything you said... At some point I've owned all the cars on your best shifter list (with the exception of the Evo 10). My absolute favorite transmission was the S2000 followed by the Miata... My friend has a DCT M3 that I've driven numerous times. That transmission is phenomenal. I've always been a 3 pedal guy but after 24 hrs with SMG 3 in a M6 and then numerous drives of the DCT M3, I've changed. DCT is tremendous!!!!
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