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      08-02-2011, 05:18 PM   #1
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A visulized US debt.

This is what $14.5 trillion looks like.


http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/
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      08-02-2011, 09:13 PM   #2
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This is what $14.5 trillion looks like.


http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/
Explain why 8 yrs of Bush never elicited this degree of caring about the debt by Americans.
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      08-02-2011, 09:40 PM   #3
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Explain why 8 yrs of Bush never elicited this degree of caring about the debt by Americans.

I'm not a mind reader, so i cant tell you why people think the way they do.
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      08-03-2011, 12:46 AM   #4
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I'm not a mind reader, so i cant tell you why people think the way they do.
Cop out. How about you?
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      08-03-2011, 07:37 AM   #5
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Cop out. How about you?
That's a very simple question to answer. We were all distracted by the massive amounts of disposable income the avg. American had access to.

Whereas now, as a country, people are out of work and are struggling to get by as their personal debt increases. The idea of debt to someone without a job or someone struggling to get by is very familiar. Something that was not so familiar just 4 1/2 years ago.
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      08-03-2011, 11:51 AM   #6
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Cop out. How about you?


I dont want to have a pointless argument. I started this thread to show people a visual representation what a lot of money looks like, nothing more and nothing less.
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      08-03-2011, 12:02 PM   #7
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Explain why 8 yrs of Bush never elicited this degree of caring about the debt by Americans.
Are you that dense?...they did!...you cant see straight as your liberal lust blinds you.

Dont you get it?...when Bush 2 was prez, there were more people protesting his moves then people who are anti-Obama right now.

I know you think everyone is out to get Obama right now because he is either a liberal/socialist or black, but did it ever occur to you that people are anti-Obama because they are tired of the same old games and negligence by our govt period?...these same people were that way with Bush too...sure there are some hard core repubs who blindly act "republican" and foolish, but these people are the minority now.

The debt matter because we are at a inflection point...we have reached 15T in debt, which is the same as our GDP..if you dont understand the importance of this ratio and what it has done to other countries, then you need to research this abit more...so it isnt "our debt always increase so no big deal as status quo once again rules supreme".

The bond mkt will rise up one day and prob sooner rather than later...wonder why El Erien and Bill Gross of PIMCO pulled out of bonds awhile back.
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      08-03-2011, 12:02 PM   #8
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I dont want to have a pointless argument. I started this thread to show people a visual representation what a lot of money looks like, nothing more and nothing less.
Is that a picture with the twin towers?
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      08-03-2011, 12:29 PM   #9
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We were at 120% debt to GDP in World War II. Now we're fighting multiple wars, and we are approaching 100% debt to GDP ratio.

I'm not happy about the ratio we're at, but let's get real and understand that we came back strong after WWII from a 120% debt to GDP.

For someone who claims to know all about the "big picture", you seem to repeatedly fail to put modern events into historical perspective. Yet another example of a Tea Party math fail.
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      08-03-2011, 01:00 PM   #10
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We were at 120% debt to GDP in World War II. Now we're fighting multiple wars, and we are approaching 100% debt to GDP ratio.

I'm not happy about the ratio we're at, but let's get real and understand that we came back strong after WWII from a 120% debt to GDP.

For someone who claims to know all about the "big picture", you seem to repeatedly fail to put modern events into historical perspective. Yet another example of a Tea Party math fail.
Back then we were the largest producers of oil in the world...we had industry and made more products than anyone,..we didnt have alot of debt in true dollar amount...we were the biggest savers and LENDERS in the world at that time....we had political clout as everyone owed us money....big difference.

Now we are the biggest debtors in the world and we dont save...we dont produce much anymore...we are a serviced based economy...we are more polarized now than ever.

Context is everything...other nations with debt to gdp ratio in "similar"situations have had some strange things happen to them.

You are funny...you always scratch the surface but dont ever get the big picture...some things dont change...just smart enough to be dangerous, that is your motto...

By the way, you are wrong about the 50's and our debt to gdp ratio being the same as now....you are looking at graph you googled which shows govt debt vs GDP...not overall debt(govt/consumers) vs gdp.

Last edited by mact3333; 08-03-2011 at 01:11 PM.
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      08-03-2011, 01:15 PM   #11
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Back then we were the largest producers of oil in the world...we had industry and made more products than anyone,..we didnt have alot of debt in true dollar amount...we were the biggest savers and LENDERS in the world at that time....we had political clout as everyone owed us money....big difference.

Now we are the biggest debtors in the world and we dont save...we dont produce much anymore...we are a serviced based economy...we are more polarized now than ever.

Context is everything...other nations with debt to gdp ratio in "similar"situations have had some strange things happen to them.

You are funny...you always scratch the surface but dont ever get the big picture...some things dont change...just smart enough to be dangerous, that is your motto...

By the way, you are wrong about the 50's and our debt to gdp ratio being the same as now.
First off, I didn't say that we had a debt to GDP ratio right now that is the same as the 1950's. I said we had AN EVEN HIGHER debt ratio in WWII mid 1940 (~120%), and by the 1950's we managed to turn it completely around.

In roughly a decade, we went from ~120% to ~60% debt to GDP ratio by the 1950's.

Your understanding of the math I presented is wrong. More of the Tea Party not understanding math. Either that, or you seriously think that WWII happened in thee 1950's???



As for the economics, you at least understand the framework for our economic revival. Too bad you don't understand how to make it happen.
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      08-03-2011, 02:18 PM   #12
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      08-03-2011, 02:45 PM   #13
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wrong again......the gdp is calculated completely different now...so in reality, our current debt to GDP is higher than 120%...do you know what the denominator in the GDP calc is?..hmm...do you know how we used to calculate this denominator up until Clinton?...sure ya do...keep scratching my friend----> "I am not your friend?"........what is our debt to gdp ratio when you take into consideration medicare obligations over the next 20 yrs?...1000!

I am starting to feel guilty for abusing you so much on here...it is clear what ya know what you dont...I come across as a know it all cause I do have opinions, but I do veritably understand that I know no less or no more than anyone on here...they are just opinions...it is the internet hence we all get argumentative for sport...I will promise not to belittle you for rest of today or maybe even tomorrow...but after that you are fair game again....take care...


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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
First off, I didn't say that we had a debt to GDP ratio right now that is the same as the 1950's. I said we had AN EVEN HIGHER debt ratio in WWII mid 1940 (~120%), and by the 1950's we managed to turn it completely around.

In roughly a decade, we went from ~120% to ~60% debt to GDP ratio by the 1950's.

Your understanding of the math I presented is wrong. More of the Tea Party not understanding math. Either that, or you seriously think that WWII happened in thee 1950's???



As for the economics, you at least understand the framework for our economic revival. Too bad you don't understand how to make it happen.
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      08-03-2011, 03:03 PM   #14
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wrong again......the gdp is calculated completely different now...so in reality, our current debt to GDP is higher than 120%...do you know what the denominator in the GDP calc is?..hmm...do you know how we used to calculate this denominator up until Clinton?...sure ya do...keep scratching my friend----> "I am not your friend?"........what is our debt to gdp ratio when you take into consideration medicare obligations over the next 20 yrs?...1000!

I am starting to feel guilty for abusing you so much on here...it is clear what ya know what you dont...I come across as a know it all cause I do have opinions, but I do veritably understand that I know no less or no more than anyone on here...they are just opinions...it is the internet hence we all get argumentative for sport...I will promise not to belittle you for rest of today or maybe even tomorrow...but after that you are fair game again....take care...
I more or less agree with everything you've said up to the "bolded" part.

I don't think it's fair to factor in medicare obligations, as medicare will almost certainly be reformed in the next few years. Same holds true for social security.
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      08-03-2011, 03:57 PM   #15
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wrong again......the gdp is calculated completely different now...so in reality, our current debt to GDP is higher than 120%...do you know what the denominator in the GDP calc is?..hmm...do you know how we used to calculate this denominator up until Clinton?...sure ya do...keep scratching my friend----> "I am not your friend?"........what is our debt to gdp ratio when you take into consideration medicare obligations over the next 20 yrs?...1000!

I am starting to feel guilty for abusing you so much on here...it is clear what ya know what you dont...I come across as a know it all cause I do have opinions, but I do veritably understand that I know no less or no more than anyone on here...they are just opinions...it is the internet hence we all get argumentative for sport...I will promise not to belittle you for rest of today or maybe even tomorrow...but after that you are fair game again....take care...

What does that have to do with my point that we've cut debt to GDP in half in a ~decade before, and we can do it again?
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      08-03-2011, 04:06 PM   #16
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I more or less agree with everything you've said up to the "bolded" part.

I don't think it's fair to factor in medicare obligations, as medicare will almost certainly be reformed in the next few years. Same holds true for social security.
I agree with you because if we dont, we will have hyperinflation and the entire system will crumble...but mark my words, when we do do the austerity thing by cutting medicare/medicaid, social security, state pensions/PERS, and etc...you will see rioting here in the US ala greece...I try to project 3 yrs out and that is what I see.
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      08-03-2011, 04:11 PM   #17
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What does that have to do with my point that we've cut debt to GDP in half in a ~decade before, and we can do it again?
I know you dont believe what you just said...the only way we will pay back this debt with any significance is if the dollar gets annihilated and we pay back the asians with worthless US dollars...this is prob right before we go an SDR world currency...by then gas will be 10.00 a gallon and a loaf of bread 10.00 too.

And we are on the cusp of a double dip recession so "genuine" growth anytime soon seems pretty farfetched, hence GDP growth not likely at all...unless you keep telling the people we have 0 inflation while we are paying 10.00 a gallon at the pump....
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      08-03-2011, 06:22 PM   #18
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I know you dont believe what you just said...the only way we will pay back this debt with any significance is if the dollar gets annihilated and we pay back the asians with worthless US dollars...this is prob right before we go an SDR world currency...by then gas will be 10.00 a gallon and a loaf of bread 10.00 too.

And we are on the cusp of a double dip recession so "genuine" growth anytime soon seems pretty farfetched, hence GDP growth not likely at all...unless you keep telling the people we have 0 inflation while we are paying 10.00 a gallon at the pump....

I won't be paying 10 a gallon to drive a car around. You might.
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      08-04-2011, 10:38 AM   #19
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First off, I didn't say that we had a debt to GDP ratio right now that is the same as the 1950's. I said we had AN EVEN HIGHER debt ratio in WWII mid 1940 (~120%), and by the 1950's we managed to turn it completely around.

In roughly a decade, we went from ~120% to ~60% debt to GDP ratio by the 1950's.

Your understanding of the math I presented is wrong. More of the Tea Party not understanding math. Either that, or you seriously think that WWII happened in thee 1950's???



As for the economics, you at least understand the framework for our economic revival. Too bad you don't understand how to make it happen.

Part of what allowed us to decrease the debt ratio was increased revenue. Look at the 1990's, for example. While taxes increased somewhat in that decade, the big driver for government revenues was economic growth and growth in the equity markets.

Those days of large GDP growth are gone, for at least the next decade. Economists have now accepted that home equity prices play a huge role in consumer spending; until these home prices begin to appreciate, we are unlikely to see much beyond 1-2% GDP growth. And that's not expected to happen until 2020 or so.

The public is also assuming that by raising taxes, we will recapture all of the lost tax revenue during the Bush years. That's not going to happen; the wealthy have lost income and wealth in the past 2-3 years, just like the rest of American society. There are two more arguments against raising taxes:

1.) Taxes are inherently inefficient from an economic standpoint. They create what are known as 'dead-weight losses' - that is, losses in economic production and efficiency simply due to government intervention in the private sector.

2.) The argument that the Tea Partiers like to throw around. Economic growth will likely be hampered by raising taxes on the wealthy. They are humans just like anyone else, and human nature is to decrease consumption when taxes are higher, regardless of income. How much they decrease their consumption and investment is really quite theoretical, though, and is not clear. But in my opinion, raising revenues in this economic climate is playing with fire.
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      08-04-2011, 10:40 AM   #20
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I agree with you because if we dont, we will have hyperinflation and the entire system will crumble...but mark my words, when we do do the austerity thing by cutting medicare/medicaid, social security, state pensions/PERS, and etc...you will see rioting here in the US ala greece...I try to project 3 yrs out and that is what I see.
I certainly hope our society doesn't crumble like Greece. But I am quite concerned about reforming these entitlements, as well. Both systems are completely unsustainable in the long run, due to the increase in life span and general aging of the American population.

I'm also worried we face a 'lost decade', very similar to what Japan went through in the '90s.
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      08-04-2011, 10:47 AM   #21
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Ding Ding Ding we have a winner...finally I am hearing some sensible talk!...Mr 11 feels we will grow like the 50's...I gave him 5 reasons why it wont happen but he doesnt see it.

3/4 of the growth in 2000's, until the crash, was people tapping their home equity ATM's...this cash register not available anymore...and without a new industry to promote true growth, we will be stagant and dependent on the Feds and the govt to artifically create growth for us, but this causes inflation, which in turn will cause an economic downturn in itself...so in a sense, we are allowing the "haves" to maintain their 401K's while letting the poor who cannot take the inflationary insult while on govt handouts while unemployed.



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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
Part of what allowed us to decrease the debt ratio was increased revenue. Look at the 1990's, for example. While taxes increased somewhat in that decade, the big driver for government revenues was economic growth and growth in the equity markets.

Those days of large GDP growth are gone, for at least the next decade. Economists have now accepted that home equity prices play a huge role in consumer spending; until these home prices begin to appreciate, we are unlikely to see much beyond 1-2% GDP growth. And that's not expected to happen until 2020 or so.

The public is also assuming that by raising taxes, we will recapture all of the lost tax revenue during the Bush years. That's not going to happen; the wealthy have lost income and wealth in the past 2-3 years, just like the rest of American society. There are two more arguments against raising taxes:

1.) Taxes are inherently inefficient from an economic standpoint. They create what are known as 'dead-weight losses' - that is, losses in economic production and efficiency simply due to government intervention in the private sector.

2.) The argument that the Tea Partiers like to throw around. Economic growth will likely be hampered by raising taxes on the wealthy. They are humans just like anyone else, and human nature is to decrease consumption when taxes are higher, regardless of income. How much they decrease their consumption and investment is really quite theoretical, though, and is not clear. But in my opinion, raising revenues in this economic climate is playing with fire.
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      08-04-2011, 10:50 AM   #22
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I won't be paying 10 a gallon to drive a car around. You might.
if things go badly and we have severe inflation from clandestone QE 3 and 4, yes I will be paying 10.00 a gallon cause I cant ride my bike to work.

Since you prob dont work, wont effect you as much....
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