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      07-26-2011, 02:23 PM   #45
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I'm a smart guy! ...and because I'm a smart guy, I'll follow what the other smart guys (BMW engineers) say to do with my car.
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      07-26-2011, 07:41 PM   #46
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I'm a smart guy! ...and because I'm a smart guy, I'll follow what the other smart guys (BMW engineers) say to do with my car.
Don't be quite so universally accepting of BMW "wisdom". 15k (or so) oil changes and "lifetime" DCT fluid for the M3 are recommendations from the same folks (probably not entirely blessed by their engineers though). Most folks in the know vehemently disagree with these recommendations
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      07-26-2011, 08:18 PM   #47
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Most folks in the know vehemently disagree with these recommendations
Indeed . If only engineers could get away with what they want . Blame it on bean counters, stock holders (demanding ever increasing profits), EPA, lawyers, etc.
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      07-26-2011, 08:25 PM   #48
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Don't be quite so universally accepting of BMW "wisdom". 15k (or so) oil changes and "lifetime" DCT fluid for the M3 are recommendations from the same folks (probably not entirely blessed by their engineers though). Most folks in the know vehemently disagree with these recommendations
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Indeed . If only engineers could get away with what they want . Blame it on bean counters, stock holders (demanding ever increasing profits), EPA, lawyers, etc.
Although I don't necessarily disagree, the argument to live by the break in recommendations would be to avoid getting grief from BMW if a problem came up. If the car was "abused" during the break in period (according to how BMW might define it) and you had an issue with the engine, I wouldn't want to give them the opportunity to try to deny a warranty claim. I'm not even saying they would deny warranty but I wouldn't want to have that fight. For that reason, I would follow the break in recommendations whether it is needed or not... it won't hurt the car for sure so the only downside, IMO, is decreased driving enjoyment for 1,200 miles.
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      07-29-2011, 03:36 PM   #49
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Bump. I am very interested in this topic.
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      07-29-2011, 04:13 PM   #50
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Bump. I am very interested in this topic.
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      07-29-2011, 11:02 PM   #51
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Why not follow BMW guidelines?... I did, and my M3 runs great and does not burn any oil..
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      07-30-2011, 06:12 PM   #52
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Why not follow BMW guidelines?... I did, and my M3 runs great and does not burn any oil..
Same here. I don't agree with oil change intervals and many other things, but I always follow break-in recommendations; cheap insurance . Plus you get used to the car before being aggressive, and in case of 6MTs, avoiding botched shifts, gear grinding, etc.
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      07-31-2011, 06:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Don't be quite so universally accepting of BMW "wisdom". 15k (or so) oil changes and "lifetime" DCT fluid for the M3 are recommendations from the same folks (probably not entirely blessed by their engineers though). Most folks in the know vehemently disagree with these recommendations
Swamp, I'm only talking about Break-in LOL

Look bottom line is why would you spend 70K+ on a car and not following the break-in recommendations?
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      07-31-2011, 06:13 PM   #54
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Same here. I don't agree with oil change intervals and many other things, but I always follow break-in recommendations; cheap insurance . Plus you get used to the car before being aggressive, and in case of 6MTs, avoiding botched shifts, gear grinding, etc.

+1

Dead on!
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      08-02-2011, 06:26 PM   #55
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Swamp, I'm only talking about Break-in LOL

Look bottom line is why would you spend 70K+ on a car and not following the break-in recommendations?
Personally I did follow them and my car also does not burn a speck of oil. I was only challenging the universal acceptance of BMW wisdom.

Also on on mostly unrelated point: Where is Legion5, it's been awfully quiet here since I challenged him? He was active on the forum as recently as 2 p.m. today.
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      08-02-2011, 06:36 PM   #56
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Personally I did follow them and my car also does not burn a speck of oil. I was only challenging the universal acceptance of BMW wisdom.

Also on on mostly unrelated point: Where is Legion5, it's been awfully quiet here since I challenged him? He was active on the forum as recently as 2 p.m. today.
A bunch of us challenged him in another thread and he became very quiet there too. Same deal as here, he was professing to be an "expert" on the issue of colour choice and a few people called him on it and then.... nothing.
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      08-03-2011, 02:35 AM   #57
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A bunch of us challenged him in another thread and he became very quiet there too. Same deal as here, he was professing to be an "expert" on the issue of colour choice and a few people called him on it and then.... nothing.
I'm seeing the increased need for some like or dislike or some sort of reputation system here on the forum...
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      08-03-2011, 08:56 AM   #58
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Just so you know the manufacturer break in proceedure is primarily designed to keep you from messing up your car. It's one of the worst break in proceedures you can do, and by the first few dozen miles the engine is utterly broken in for all intents and purposes.

I've worked in and around high end open wheel racing and the engineers on racing teams unanimously laugh at the manufacturer suggdested ultra long break in proceedures for cars. I've seen both engineers from the top schools with the latest knowlege and guys with 40 years of experience with engines laughing at manufacturer break in proceedures.

Basically the main purpose of keeping the engine at low RPM for 1200 miles is because the oil is filled with solids from the first few miles of break in. Following the manufacturer proceedure will protect the engine if you don't change the oil repeatedly within the first few miles which is something that nobody does and therefore the manufacturer proceedure is born. The manufacturer break in proceedure, while being safe and not as technical as a proper break in, both takes a long time and significantly reduces power output.

If you want to know how to properly break in your car and enjoy the engine sooner, read this:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I used the mototune break in procedure for the built S52 in my turbo E36M3. That engine runs great over two years later and now makes over 500 rwhp and over 500 lbs rwtq.

I bought my E90M3 used so I don't know how it was broken in, but I do have a CPO warranty through 6 years or 100k miles. I wonder whether the ECU stores enough data for the dealer to determine whether the engine was broken in according to the owner's manual and potentially use to deny warranty coverage if a problem arose.
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      08-03-2011, 09:55 AM   #59
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I'm seeing the increased need for some like or dislike or some sort of reputation system here on the forum...
Concur.
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      08-03-2011, 12:09 PM   #60
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Personally I did follow them and my car also does not burn a speck of oil. I was only challenging the universal acceptance of BMW wisdom.
I totally hear you

It was beaten into my soul to change oil @ 3K for Dino, and 5k for Full Synthetic. Until someone can prove to me that fresh, clean oil isn't better - I will keep changing my oil more often then BMW requires.

I'm not burning any oil either.
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      08-03-2011, 02:03 PM   #61
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I totally hear you

It was beaten into my soul to change oil @ 3K for Dino, and 5k for Full Synthetic. Until someone can prove to me that fresh, clean oil isn't better - I will keep changing my oil more often then BMW requires.

I'm not burning any oil either.
Regarding "clean" oil; it isn't better, it just isn't any worse : ) The visual appearance of oil has nothing to do with how well it can lubricate an engine. Just as a used oil analysis does not tell you the ability of the oil to lubricate the engine either. Changing it every 5k certainly won't hurt, but I can guarantee you that a modern synthetic oil can properly lubricate the engine for far longer.

I basically followed the BMW break-in procedure and burn a quart every 5-6k miles or so. Honestly, there is very little chance of correlating one to the other either IMHO. There are a lot of factors that affect oil consumption including, but not limited to, environment, driving style, manufacturing tolerances, etc.
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      08-03-2011, 02:23 PM   #62
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Wow misinformation galore...
  1. There are NOT abrasives in an lubricating oils in the M3 nor any other production car.
  2. The engine internals do not need to be heat cycled to harden them.
  3. The car most likely does not come with special break in fluids.

In addition:
  1. All modern engines are taken to redline multiple times in the factory likely before the engine and chassis are even mated.
  2. Factory break in procedures are probably as much or even more for the tranny and diff as the engine itself.
  3. Anecdotal evidence about soft vs. hard break in does not establish that one or the other will consistently produce a broken in engine with more power. This takes study, science and maybe some statistics to prove
  4. That being said it does appear pretty clear that most engines make more power after broken in than when totally fresh.

Lastly to Legion5:
Since you are so prone to calling folks out to list their experience/sources/degrees/etc. then that comes right back to you. Please tell us the F1 teams and engineers you've spoken with about engine break in and provide the exact (or nearly exact) quotes from them. Along with that knowing the schools and topic of their PhDs would be most insightful. The reason for my request is genuine and 3 fold.
  1. I don't buy the stark contrast between factory recommended procedures and the hard break in philosophy.
  2. It is not all that likely that some random motorbike mechanic (your existing reference) is in perfect agreement with a typical F1 team. Either way the quality of this source is not at all up to that of your other sources you mention.
  3. If your sources really are that good, I (and probably the forum members in general) stand to learn quite a bit on this topic and it may alter our behaviors in the future.

Thanks in advance.
No offense but you come off like you're specifically trying to be negative here.

I can only tell you a few absolute facts. Firstly, while the break in proceedure I posted is writen by a motorcycle mechanic, it is very widely adopted in racing in different variations. To the point where variations of the proceedure I posted are as widely adopted the fundamental of methods for finding the right racing line around a track. Like finding the right way around a track everyone has their own technique that differs slightly, but it's all fundamentally similar to what was posted.

The other absolute fact is that like finding the right racing line around a track, people have put a lot of effort into perfecting it. Racing engine builders have poured litelrally hundreds of millions of dollars into research, and explored every new technique they can get their hands on, yet the technique still remains the same and fundamental with slight variations. This is first hand information from Cosworth staff, which are widely regarded as the best engine builders in the world. To the point where in racing cosworth builds all the engines for Mercedes and McLaren and each team just slap their name on them. Keep in mind this isn't something I gleamed when trying to prove my point on this thread. This information was initially presented when I sought to find a competetive edge with my engine in my race car. I looked into all the possibilities.

The final absolute fact is that BMW's proceedure is lame. It is the equivalent of going back to the racing line analogy, replacing a racing line with a bunch of speed limit markers set to the same level of grip and speed as street signs. As someone else mentioned, they were told by BMW's staff at the factory BMW's proceedure is a precaution.

Beyond these absolute facts everything is conjecture, this says nothing about the effects on the transmission or differential, and I don't know if BMW even essentially does the same widely accepted proceedure I posted themselves before putting the engine in the car.
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      08-03-2011, 09:25 PM   #63
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No offense but you come off like you're specifically trying to be negative here.

I can only tell you a few absolute facts. Firstly, while the break in proceedure I posted is writen by a motorcycle mechanic, it is very widely adopted in racing in different variations. To the point where variations of the proceedure I posted are as widely adopted the fundamental of methods for finding the right racing line around a track. Like finding the right way around a track everyone has their own technique that differs slightly, but it's all fundamentally similar to what was posted.

The other absolute fact is that like finding the right racing line around a track, people have put a lot of effort into perfecting it. Racing engine builders have poured litelrally hundreds of millions of dollars into research, and explored every new technique they can get their hands on, yet the technique still remains the same and fundamental with slight variations. This is first hand information from Cosworth staff, which are widely regarded as the best engine builders in the world. To the point where in racing cosworth builds all the engines for Mercedes and McLaren and each team just slap their name on them. Keep in mind this isn't something I gleamed when trying to prove my point on this thread. This information was initially presented when I sought to find a competetive edge with my engine in my race car. I looked into all the possibilities.

The final absolute fact is that BMW's proceedure is lame. It is the equivalent of going back to the racing line analogy, replacing a racing line with a bunch of speed limit markers set to the same level of grip and speed as street signs. As someone else mentioned, they were told by BMW's staff at the factory BMW's proceedure is a precaution.

Beyond these absolute facts everything is conjecture, this says nothing about the effects on the transmission or differential, and I don't know if BMW even essentially does the same widely accepted proceedure I posted themselves before putting the engine in the car.
Amazing how you can put so much time into a response, and completely ignore every single point you were challenged on instead running off on a 'racing line' tangent.
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      08-04-2011, 08:58 AM   #64
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Regarding "clean" oil; it isn't better, it just isn't any worse : ) The visual appearance of oil has nothing to do with how well it can lubricate an engine. Just as a used oil analysis does not tell you the ability of the oil to lubricate the engine either. Changing it every 5k certainly won't hurt, but I can guarantee you that a modern synthetic oil can properly lubricate the engine for far longer.

I basically followed the BMW break-in procedure and burn a quart every 5-6k miles or so. Honestly, there is very little chance of correlating one to the other either IMHO. There are a lot of factors that affect oil consumption including, but not limited to, environment, driving style, manufacturing tolerances, etc.
When I referred to clean oil, I meant new oil (symantecs). I never made any reference to oil color and it's ability to lubricate.

I generally split the BMW oil change interval. If BMW requires the oil change in 12k miles I replace it at 6k.
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      08-04-2011, 10:48 AM   #65
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When I referred to clean oil, I meant new oil (symantecs). I never made any reference to oil color and it's ability to lubricate.

I generally split the BMW oil change interval. If BMW requires the oil change in 12k miles I replace it at 6k.
Gotcha! : )
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      08-04-2011, 11:00 AM   #66
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Gotcha! : )
We are on the same page.
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