N54 vs S65 on the Track

[persian54]

Originally Posted by Z K

NA is not better than FI. This is an issue specific to the N54 motor. I've ran my previous 400hp Evo all day on track in 120 degree weather. No issues at all with stock cooling.

I was referring to FI N54 and NA S65 (hence the tread title). I don't like going off topic (meaning other FI cars vs other NA cars).

Originally Posted by Z K

I've run Buttonwillow before in the middle of summer and no issues on my Evo.

A blanket statement like NA>FI is pretty dumb. The 370Z is NA and that car overheats on track.

IIRC the stock 370Z does not have an oil cooler?

Also I'm not saying you're fast or slow, but it's also driver defendant.

Not sure what your times are at Button Willow or how hot it was when you were there

At SOW this past weekend it was 105, pretty freaking damn hot.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by persian54

I was referring to FI N54 and NA S65 (hence the tread title). I don't like going off topic (meaning other FI cars vs other NA cars).



IIRC the stock 370Z does not have an oil cooler?

Also I'm not saying you're fast or slow, but it's also driver defendant.

Not sure what your times are at Button Willow or how hot it was when you were there

At SOW this past weekend it was 105, pretty freaking damn hot.

I was not referring to your post. I was responding to Christopherchenm's post which generalized NA and FI.

I ran Buttonwillow once, didn't time it. IMHO probably wouldn't be too good as it was my first and only time there. My fastest time at Thunderhill was 2:09.4 over the top in my car and 1:50 at Laguna Seca. I've been tracking and instructing for over 10 years so I've done it in many different cars.

But you are right, it is going off topic. In terms of N54 and S65, definitely I'd pick the M3 for track duty.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by Z K

I was not referring to your post. I was responding to Christopherchenm's post which generalized NA and FI.

I ran Buttonwillow once, didn't time it. IMHO probably wouldn't be too good as it was my first and only time there. My fastest time at Thunderhill was 2:09.4 over the top in my car and 1:50 at Laguna Seca. I've been tracking and instructing for over 10 years so I've done it in many different cars.

But you are right, it is going off topic. In terms of N54 and S65, definitely I'd pick the M3 for track duty.

I can't wait to run Laguna Seca one day.

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by aus

There's a thread titled "limp mode parade ar the track" on the other side... and it's a long thread.

limp mode party

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412156

[piloto]

Originally Posted by persian54

I can't wait to run Laguna Seca one day.

You'll love it! It's awesome. Just make sure to bring proper brake pads and fluid. It's very hard on brakes.

[Jeff_DML]

one of my instructors limp moded his e92 m3 at buttonwillow but he had left the A/C on

[persian54]

These were my temps at the track (actually it was little hotter on cause I took this while I was driving 20mph on the road [off track] to cool down the car)

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

limp mode party

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412156

Interesting. Why don't you look at post number 273 here on page 13 of that thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...412156&page=13

Is that an E90 M3? What are the oil and coolant temps reading? whats that? 295F, and 225F respectively? Obviously that car gets super hot after only a few laps. I think you guys DON'T have a limp mode, as opposed to the fact that your cars are somehow NA, and therefore "perfect" for track use.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by persian54

These were my temps at the track (actually it was little hotter on cause I took this while I was driving 20mph on the road [off track] to cool down the car)

These were taken by me, when I was riding in an E90 M3, after only 3 laps at the track:



However the guages installed by IND, read:


So what exactly is the difference in oil temps?

[persian54]

you should ask IND about that ^

maybe poor install? I know the gauge is not perfect stock but it's not off by that much

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by persian54

you should ask IND about that ^

maybe poor install? I know the gauge is not perfect stock but it's not off by that much

The OEM guage at 275 Degrees doesn't look pretty, either. I know for a fact that I've seen the E46 M3, at that same track hit 280F+. He was my instructor, and he had to pull out because of his overheating. So is it that the NA engines don't have limp modes, or that they don't get as hot? I'm thinking its the former.

Is the S65 a much more versatile engine, than an N54 at the track? YES! Its stupid to even make the thread. Using oil or coolant temps to put down the N54, however, shows Pure IGNORANCE about tracking cars.

[Seattle S65B40]

Originally Posted by gthal

Some turbos are great even on the track... I would be happy to have the 911 GT2 RS and its turbo . It can be done in a way that works well. However, it is hard to do well and there are definitely inherent compromises as you point out.

911 GT2 RS

[persian54]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

The OEM guage at 275 Degrees doesn't look pretty, either. I know for a fact that I've seen the E46 M3, at that same track hit 280F+. He was my instructor, and he had to pull out because of his overheating. So is it that the NA engines don't have limp modes, or that they don't get as hot? I'm thinking its the former.

Is the S65 a much more versatile engine, than an N54 at the track? YES! Its stupid to even make the thread. Using oil or coolant temps to put down the N54, however, shows Pure IGNORANCE about tracking cars.

I think you need to have a cookie :P

Just saying

[llis]

Re N54, I have a friend who traded in her 335i for one with a sport package and oil cooler. Before: limp mode several times each run. After: no limp mode. She's happy.

I loved my 335ix, but never tracked it. It was the mountain road monster, though.

Re S65:

Originally Posted by persian54

These were my temps at the track (actually it was little hotter on cause I took this while I was driving 20mph on the road [off track] to cool down the car)

Wow, I was going to say I see the same thing, but look at my temp gauge! (Obviously cold atm.) Hot laps in 100º+ weather will kick mine up about 1/3 past the 3/4 hash mark. I was concerned, but this gauge, with no meaningful hashmarks, maxes at 300º, not 340º, so mine seems to be cooler running that yours.

Can i just say I hate my temp gauge? It's practically an idiot light for all the info it provides.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by llis

Wow, I was going to say I see the same thing, but look at my temp gauge! (Obviously cold atm.) Hot laps in 100º+ weather will kick mine up about 1/3 past the 3/4 hash mark. I was concerned, but this gauge, with no meaningful hashmarks, maxes at 300º, not 340º, so mine seems to be cooler running that yours.

Can i just say I hate my temp gauge? It's practically an idiot light for all the info it provides.

Umm...S65 temp gauge and N54 temp gauge are suppose to be different.. they're different engines...

[llis]

Originally Posted by persian54

Umm...S65 temp gauge and N54 temp gauge are suppose to be different.. they're different engines...

Didn't realize which car it was. Just saw "2011.5 E93 M3 Mineral White/Fox Red..." in your sig. At least your Z4 has a better gauge. I'd love to have reference hash marks.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by llis

Didn't realize which car it was. Just saw "2011.5 E93 M3 Mineral White/Fox Red..." in your sig. At least your Z4 has a better gauge. I'd love to have reference hash marks.

No worries :P
But the Z4 is also in my sig

and the thread title says n54 vs s65

But yeah I like how the Z4 has more lines so it's a bit easier to read

[bumbleB335]

I just finished a SCCA PDX at Mid-Ohio with my 09 335 xDrive. Sad to say she's hurtin'. Got the limp mode that everyone's talking about on almost every 20min session plus some diff issues. I have a Cobb AP which probably made the problem worse.

I need to get back on the track and would love to do club racing but I'm not loaded and I have enough self respect to stay out of a Miata. Does anyone have any experience with easing into club racing? I've been doing autox for a while and it's fun but only 8min of it followed by 7hrs of sunburn.

You obviously need a dedicated track car for GTS / IT. I was thinking about using an M3 as a DD for a while and making it a track car one piece at a time. Thoughts? Talk me out of it? Did my wife send you?

[NoM3ForMe]

Originally Posted by persian54

I wonder what the reactions would be if I posted this on e90post...

There would be much flinging of pooh from the monkeys over there...

[Longboarder]

Hey persian54,

You may never take the n54 Z back to the track, but I think you need just a couple tweaks and you will have a totally different perspective. I've seen your posts and I see we track at the same places....but never at the same events. Hopefully someday we can meet up.

I have a 2010 n54 e92 335i and a 2013 e92 M3. My n54 335i is equipped with meth injection and i'm able to run up to 19psi in the middle of summer at Willow, for example. Meth injection at a 50/50 mix is fantastic in keeping oil temps in check, particulaly in very hot conditions.

As an example, with just a DCI, catlezz dps, Procede and meth, on the back straight my car hauled down 600 and 700 HP cars at my last track session in June (one car was a heavily modded M6 and the other a tuned biturbo 63). My oil temps never hit 250. Top end pull is crazy. In fact I raced an ESS VT1 Supercharged M3 later in the day on the back-straight roll on and it was very close and in fact the M3 gained the early lead but I was pulling in the triple digits.

In addition to the four bolt on engine mods, I also have coils, LSD and Michelin Pilot SS tires. That's it.

I haven't experienced the M at the track yet but my guess is that my 335i with just these seven mods is more capable at a fast track like Big Willow. Sure the M3 is more precise, and the 335 is a white-knuckle experience in some corners but it has tons of grip and is a rocket at any speed and at any RPM. Now, mod the M3 and it will of course easily take the 335 at the track but that's expected.

Anyway if you have the budget for these mods, don't give up on your Z. It will surprise you.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Hey persian54,

You may never take the n54 Z back to the track, but I think you need just a couple tweaks and you will have a totally different perspective. I've seen your posts and I see we track at the same places....but never at the same events. Hopefully someday we can meet up.

I have a 2010 n54 e92 335i and a 2013 e92 M3. My n54 335i is equipped with meth injection and i'm able to run up to 19psi in the middle of summer at Willow, for example. Meth injection at a 50/50 mix is fantastic in keeping oil temps in check, particulaly in very hot conditions.

As an example, with just a DCI, catlezz dps, Procede and meth, on the back straight my car hauled down 600 and 700 HP cars at my last track session in June (one car was a heavily modded M6 and the other a tuned biturbo 63). My oil temps never hit 250. Top end pull is crazy. In fact I raced an ESS VT1 Supercharged M3 later in the day on the back-straight roll on and it was very close and in fact the M3 gained the early lead but I was pulling in the triple digits.

In addition to the four bolt on engine mods, I also have coils, LSD and Michelin Pilot SS tires. That's it.

I haven't experienced the M at the track yet but my guess is that my 335i with just these seven mods is more capable at a fast track like Big Willow. Sure the M3 is more precise, and the 335 is a white-knuckle experience in some corners but it has tons of grip and is a rocket at any speed and at any RPM. Now, mod the M3 and it will of course easily take the 335 at the track but that's expected.

Anyway if you have the budget for these mods, don't give up on your Z. It will surprise you.

I come from a FBO 335i, I know how N54s can run

But my Z4 will stay stock. It's a short term lease that will be finish in under a year.

I was mainly comparing stock to stock, as my S65 was never really modded in terms of cooling at all.

You should track the m3, the S65 will make you forget about all the power in the n54.

I've had 135s pass me on straights, but after the 2nd corner I'm on their rear. I can't keep up with N54s on straights for the life of me (FBO ones), but they can't take corners as well. Then again, I don't know if they had coils/lsd etc like you do.. but they were FBO engine wise.


I am thinking of picking up a set of APEX + RS3s for the Z4 and taking it out during the cooler months (Nov-Feb). We'll see :P
I'm on the look out for a S2k as a dedicated track car now, so we'll see

I plan to take the Z4 to Oct 13th Big Willow if all things plan out. You should come! Would be great to meet you there

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by persian54

I come from a FBO 335i, I know how N54s can run

But my Z4 will stay stock. It's a short term lease that will be finish in under a year.

I was mainly comparing stock to stock, as my S65 was never really modded in terms of cooling at all.

You should track the m3, the S65 will make you forget about all the power in the n54.

I've had 135s pass me on straights, but after the 2nd corner I'm on their rear. I can't keep up with N54s on straights for the life of me (FBO ones), but they can't take corners as well. Then again, I don't know if they had coils/lsd etc like you do.. but they were FBO engine wise.


I am thinking of picking up a set of APEX + RS3s for the Z4 and taking it out during the cooler months (Nov-Feb). We'll see :P
I'm on the look out for a S2k as a dedicated track car now, so we'll see

I plan to take the Z4 to Oct 13th Big Willow if all things plan out. You should come! Would be great to meet you there

Yeah thanks I saw the Oct 13th Big Willow event ad and wish i could go but my M3 will be in peices at that point as shortly it will be going through a transformation for the Shift-S3ctor Airstrip Event.

By the way I don't know if you ran meth in your FBO n54 - it's worth 50 HP on the street but over 100 HP on the track. I have logs where meth is flowing or not flowing and boost drops to basically 14psi peak and 10psi redline on the track without meth given the high IAT's of sustained boost. With meth it hits the target of 19psi peak tapering to 16psi at redline in even the most brutally hot conditions.

Anyway I look forward to meeting you at some point as I plan on tracking the M3 by December.