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      07-29-2011, 10:50 AM   #1
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Acceleration Data with only ECU tune

Hi, i am considering ECU tune but i dont know how much of a change it would do by itself without any other mods. Does anyone have acceleration data on 0-100, 0-200, or mid-range acceleration on it.

i have seen several ECU tunes adding about 25hp and 30nm but how much it would make a difference in real driving?
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      07-29-2011, 12:25 PM   #2
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I have been trying to get this answer for some time now. No actual tests done, sadly.

The only thing close to it that I have seen is a a recent video showing a stock m3 vs modded 335, the stock m3 loses.

Then at same event a EVOLVE tuned M3 with GINTANI mufflers races the same modded 335 and the M3 wins. Given its a different car with different drivers and I believe the M3's were 6 speeds so driver has a lot to do with it. This is the closest thing I have seen to what you ask.

I still cant believe there is no actual data on this, as I have become very doubtful that a tune will do anything when it comes to real world data. Otherwise you would think a tuning company would of made time to actual show that their tunes work on the road, and would help sell some, or if they dont do crap would hurt their business.
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      07-29-2011, 06:24 PM   #3
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Too much emphasis has been given to dyno readings unfortunately and the majority of tunes are purchased based on this.
Ultimately the best tune is the one that makes your car go quicker and improves the overall drive at the same time.
We conducted tests like this on other models and realised a substantial gain in performance over a stock car in the real world.
The problem for alot of tuners is getting the time to actually conduct such a test and more importantly conducting it in a safe environment.
We are planning very soon to hire an airstrip and carrying out these tests with videos.
We have in the past shown what our flash for the e60 m5 can do against another one with way more proven power and also our 335i and 335d upgrades.
The e92 m3 tested in the video mentioned above really needs to go up against another stock m3.

Watch this space, it definately has to be done and should mirror the power gains on the dyno.

A flash can gain you say 25hp on a dyno but if it doesn't do anything on the road then it's pretty useless other than he improved drive which quite frankly is not hard to achieve.
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      07-29-2011, 08:53 PM   #4
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SAL would be amazing to see a race with a TUNE ONLY DCT M3 vs STOCK DCT M3. This would eliminate much of the drivers skill from a 6 speed.
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      07-29-2011, 09:08 PM   #5
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This would definitely be a great sight to see!! Man you guys are thinking about renting out an airstrip?!...if only I could fly to the UK and ship my E46, I'd love to play with you guys, haha.

Keep up the great work Sal. I love the confidence in your product and actually pushing to do these sought after 'tests' in safe environments to prove the gains of your work.
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      07-30-2011, 02:57 AM   #6
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stock 0-200 km/h according to Sport Auto Supertest for a MT is 15,7 sec

so this must be prooven first with your stock car, to judge whether the tune brings benefits
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      07-30-2011, 06:39 AM   #7
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I'd say the telling sign would be to simply do plenty of baseline tests first. Im sure most owners who have sent their car up the dragstrip will agree its difficult to get exactly the same time, every time.

To do any tests like this you would you need control conditions and then take averages of a set of runs at stock and tuned.
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      07-30-2011, 07:21 AM   #8
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The main problem is the tunes alone don't produce much power on this car. This is the main reason I won't get one. $1k +/- and worry about messing up your ECU or warranty for bare minimum real world increase if any? The dyno is a great tool, but I too am unimpressed by dyno numbers. Real world is all the matters, even if it's harder to collect the data

Also for most people, HP numbers such as 10, 15, or 20 look far more impressive than saying acceleration time's decreased by .1 or .2 from 0-100. When you put things in perspective I think a lot more people would pass on an ecu tune if they saw what the HP increase amounts to in time.
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      07-30-2011, 09:07 AM   #9
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You are right in that numbers are only one part of it, although a very good part. Real world results are where it matters - and that is portrayed by customers and their experiences. If it didn't, I don't think anyone would buy it, and our companies wouldn't base their reputation on a product that doesn't do anything. It wouldn't last long.

Tuning, even on a stock car, does make difference in the real world. A few tenths of a second is important for only a small amount of people, and is relevant only depending on the type of test that you do. Customers want to 'feel' the difference - and they do.

Try it out - we offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you don't like, or doesn't feel it makes a difference, send it back
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      07-30-2011, 09:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul@Evolve View Post
You are right in that numbers are only one part of it, although a very good part. Real world results are where it matters - and that is portrayed by customers and their experiences. If it didn't, I don't think anyone would buy it, and our companies wouldn't base their reputation on a product that doesn't do anything. It wouldn't last long.

Tuning, even on a stock car, does make difference in the real world. A few tenths of a second is important for only a small amount of people, and is relevant only depending on the type of test that you do. Customers want to 'feel' the difference - and they do.

Try it out - we offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you don't like, or doesn't feel it makes a difference, send it back
That's an excellent offer. I do agree it makes a difference. I just can't justify a couple tenths of a second and although that is measurable, it's minor and I have no use for that little increase. These cars are so well tuned from BMW they don't leave you a lot to play with. If I needed the car to be faster I'd supercharge it. I'd only tune if it was in combination with full exhaust, on it's own it's a very very small improvement. But that's just my opinion.
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      07-30-2011, 09:21 AM   #11
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The best opinions are those based on first hand experience BMW does leave quite a bit on the table, for extra models (see 335IS for example, sport pack upgrades etc), extreme temperatures/altitudes as well as huge margins.

It's not just the extra acceleration in a straight line, it's about the experience. We want to improve not just top end, but throughout the range and make the engine more responsive. As a package its not just about who can get to 100 quicker, although it does improve that obviously, its about improving the whole experience of driving an NA car.

Throwing the exhaust in does release a lot more power though!
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      07-30-2011, 10:13 AM   #12
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Well also member DLSJ5 has the fastest 60-130 time for a N/A M3.

back before he was ever supercharged he had a tune w/exhaust and pulley and ran a 10.7 from 60-130.

when he installed his new engine he put on the exhaust and pulley, WITHOUT a tune and ran a 10.7 from 60-130, making 355whp. Dyno below is from his new engine WITHOUT a tune. So it would seem a car with a tune should beat this easily if they actually translate to the road or as in his situation the tune did NOTHING apparently.

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      07-30-2011, 10:45 AM   #13
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I can't vouch for anybody else's tune I'm afraid, only what we have seen on our own dyno and our customers experiences.

Even so, it would be impossible to compare those numbers as they were done on different days with different conditions (and engine's by the sounds of it)

As we have described above, we will do some testing with independent witnesses (and cars if possible) and will post up the results when the testing is complete.
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      07-30-2011, 01:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul@Evolve View Post
The best opinions are those based on first hand experience BMW does leave quite a bit on the table, for extra models (see 335IS for example, sport pack upgrades etc), extreme temperatures/altitudes as well as huge margins.
If they left so much how come we such small gains on ecu alone upgrades? 335is is totally different car.
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      07-30-2011, 03:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
If they left so much how come we such small gains on ecu alone upgrades? 335is is totally different car.
Its an NA so we can only extract so much, but BMW always leave room for the reasons I quoted above.

The point with the 335IS is just an example as the 'IS' is the same N54 as the 335i but with more power as stock, but the gains are more obvious to recognise. What I am getting at, is that BMW or any manufacturer is always going to leave room - they will over engineer.
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      07-30-2011, 04:27 PM   #16
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Very rarely will any manufacturer calibrate their engine for maximum power.

This should be obvious given the information on this forum and many others.

There is always room for improvement and there is most certainly room for improvement from ECU tuning. Just depends on how much safety you want to compromise!

If a tuner knows how, he can create a calibration which is strictly to be used with 100 octane fuel. Use 95 octane fuel with this calibration and you'll soon be rebuilding your engine!!
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      07-30-2011, 11:00 PM   #17
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I agree with both of you that BMW leaves room. My point which relates to the op is that ECU tune alone on this car is very minimal and would barely show on acceleration times.
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      07-30-2011, 11:44 PM   #18
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Paul and Sal, always much respect for coming into these thread. Some of us in here are disputing and/or questioning tunes but you never shy away and always discuss with a great attitude. Appreciated, as well as being the only tuner to really engage in these threads
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      07-31-2011, 03:28 AM   #19
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i tried doing VBOX before and after tune runs but I never found a good location to do it :/
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      07-31-2011, 07:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Paul and Sal, always much respect for coming into these thread. Some of us in here are disputing and/or questioning tunes but you never shy away and always discuss with a great attitude. Appreciated, as well as being the only tuner to really engage in these threads
+1

I always have respect for the way Evolve engages in threads on this forum I wish some other vendors would take a lesson
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      07-31-2011, 10:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
+1

I always have respect for the way Evolve engages in threads on this forum I wish some other vendors would take a lesson
This is actually a huge reason why I chose to go with Evolve Automotive many months ago. They have nothing to hide, completely candid, and are more than willing to share the reasoning behind their products. Sal went to the lengths of actually offering to personally call me from the UK to discuss how I use my E46 M3, what modifications I have, which options I want for the tune, and why I want them.

The guys at Evolve not only have great customer service, but they have a vast amount of knowledge on our vehicles.

If I can swing the funds for a tune for our 100% stock E90 M3 DCT and a VBOX, I'd love to do some acceleration tests.
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      07-31-2011, 02:45 PM   #22
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Thanks guys Really nice to know our input is appreciated. We love being part of the community and sharing our experiences!
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