BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-28-2011, 06:36 PM   #45
scheherazade
Major
17
Rep
1,467
Posts

 
Drives: 09 GTR (& 93' accord!)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: DC metro area

iTrader: (8)

They basically did 4 things :

1) AWD : so it won't slip much off the line
2) Ridiculously short gearing : so it has insane wheel torque
3) Quick transmission : so it can do all the gear changes needed to flip through all those short gears, quickly.
4) Racing tyres with a DOT legal tread pattern, so it grips like a race car.

It also means that the car falls on its face over 100mph or so, as the gearing can no longer make up for the relatively paltry HP and high mass.

But that's OK for a DD because you don't go that fast.
And it's ok for a track car because on most tracks you'll run out of space and have to brake before you go over 130 or so.



What hurts fun in the GTR is really the lack of a manual transmission.

Otherwise, it rides brilliantly.
Super planted. (none of that C6 wobble wobble wobble)
Punches so hard crap will fly into the back seat if it's loose.
Grips so hard that [up to about 40 or 50, warm weather] you can enter fairly tight right-angle turns at the speed limit and without leaving the proper lane at any point throughout the turn.

You have to flip the traction control at least to the 'R' setting if you want to slide it around. 'R' will already spin the car 180 if you punch it in a hard turn, so 'off' isn't even all that necessary.

The car really is very stable and composed. It takes a lot more to upset it and make things scary.
The typical saying on NAGTROC goes : "if the ride is boring, you're not pushing it hard enough."




But the flappy paddles just kill it.
I don't care how fast it is, no stick = sad panda.

If you like DCT [and you do not require luxo-barge-seating], you'll probably be perfectly happy in a gtr.

-scheherazade
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 10:29 PM   #46
BMRLVR
Grease Monkey
BMRLVR's Avatar
Canada
39
Rep
2,332
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada

iTrader: (3)

There is a whole lot more to a car than lap times!
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP - Individual Moonstone/Individual Amarone Extended/Individual Piano Black With Inlay:LINK!!!
1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 10:40 PM   #47
lve2xlr8
Captain
lve2xlr8's Avatar
United_States
18
Rep
854
Posts

 
Drives: '11 m3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (7)

I don't care what anyone says about "driving pleasure" going around corners that fast in a car with that much grip exerting that much force has got to be a blast.
__________________
'11 M3
'00 M5 - Sold
Appreciate 0
      07-30-2011, 01:24 AM   #48
SCCAForums.com
Captain
SCCAForums.com's Avatar
United_States
11
Rep
724
Posts

 
Drives: Race Cars
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Chandler, AZ

iTrader: (2)

Most those that say GTR isn't exciting to drive can't drive...

Accessport on the car, and a midpipe... turn off traction control, and drifting around corners is as fun and intoxicating as any car on the planet.

The person who wrote doesn't accelerate after a hundred? Maybe you haven't gone that fast before... 6th gear is not an overdrive in the GTR... 75 or 80 is 3,000 rpm in 6th... the car keeps on pulling and doesn't stop... to well past 170+

Important thing in GTR, is if you really want to enjoy the car, and 'be a driver' you're going to have to drive with VDC off... and I'm guessing most on here don't even drive with DSC off.

Lastly... the DCT to Manual... I'll forever find it funny, to hear a BMW driver praise a BMW manual transmission... they have got to be the absolute biggest POS of any/all manuals I've ever driven! To put down the DCT BMW offers is pure ignorance... the DCT offered by BMW is one of the best.

To each his/her own I guess.
Dave
__________________
2010 ZR1 3ZR Wht/Blk 10.7 @ 132
2011 C63 AMG P31 Car Blk/Blk 11.8 @ 117
2010 Nissan GT-R 10.8 @ 129 (Sold)
2008 Lexus IS-F (Sold) 12.5 @ 113 / 2008 Shelby GT500 (Sold) 11.3 @ 126
2008 e90 M3 6MT 12.8 @ 111 (Sold) / 2006 e60 M5 12.4 @ 114 (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 09:35 AM   #49
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Given a choice to own ANY GTR over an E90 M3, I would choose the M hands down, and here is why. What the Fanboys over at top gear have failed to tell us is just how bad the GTR's transmission is. All the Pre-2012 tranny's were absolute shit! Oh, and I'm not talking about owners breaking their transmissions doing launch control either. I'm talking about failing on the track, and failing, just driving down the street in one that has never been tracked with less than 10K miles. Honestly the WORST transmission reliability of any car EVER. Notice how they mentioned that the 2012, has a "New transmission" entirely? It's not because of the minor bump in power, I assure you. It remains to be seen if this new one is just a piece of crap like all the others. Doubt me? well take a look at this section of their forums, and please, start from the beginning:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showforum=9
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 11:18 AM   #50
IFX
Banned
31
Rep
2,538
Posts

 
Drives: AW e46M/N54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South Fla.

iTrader: (1)

leave it to a BMW forum to downplay an awesome car like the GTR.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 11:39 AM   #51
CAPSGOD
Major
19
Rep
1,136
Posts

 
Drives: Diesel Son
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: #yolo

iTrader: (0)

^There is hate for the GTR on many forums, not just here. Mainly because it's a Nissan.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 11:58 AM   #52
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IFX View Post
leave it to a BMW forum to downplay an awesome car like the GTR.
Haha...that's exactly what I was thinking. I try to stay open minded about cars in general. I love this forum, but on every brand forum there frequently is a sense of denial/defensiveness whenever any other car dares to compare, even if it's better on most levels. There is always some excuse why the car is still a better choice and try to point out flaws with the other car. For the M3, if the compared car outperforms they say the M is a more practical, has better "balance," or that they love the high reving engine. If it's slower, then it's all about "I love my M" and it will destroy all cars in sight. I think it's human nature to defend what you spend your hard earned $$ on. Also, automotive enthusiasts are often competitive with big egos, taking great pride in the cars they drive and their rational for choosing such a car. I'm guilty of some of these things myself. BMW makes amazing cars and it's still my top brand overall, but it can't be numero uno in everything.

Last edited by erio; 07-31-2011 at 02:37 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 02:37 PM   #53
ScotyH
Bimmer me up
5
Rep
341
Posts

 
Drives: 08 M3, 2010 GTR
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Edmonton,AB

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Given a choice to own ANY GTR over an E90 M3, I would choose the M hands down, and here is why. What the Fanboys over at top gear have failed to tell us is just how bad the GTR's transmission is. All the Pre-2012 tranny's were absolute shit! Oh, and I'm not talking about owners breaking their transmissions doing launch control either. I'm talking about failing on the track, and failing, just driving down the street in one that has never been tracked with less than 10K miles. Honestly the WORST transmission reliability of any car EVER. Notice how they mentioned that the 2012, has a "New transmission" entirely? It's not because of the minor bump in power, I assure you. It remains to be seen if this new one is just a piece of crap like all the others. Doubt me? well take a look at this section of their forums, and please, start from the beginning:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showforum=9
The transmission is not new. Not sure where you got this pearl of info.

It's also very weird how when you look into the Transmission section of a forum you find that there's problems. Very strange indeed.

Especially when 90% of the cars there run 10's in the 1/4 & run circles around nearly ANY M3.

Ooh what's this? http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231020

or this http://www.m3post.com/forums/search....rchid=18021073

Last edited by ScotyH; 07-31-2011 at 02:52 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 03:09 PM   #54
Poppin Fresh
Colonel
Poppin Fresh's Avatar
Philippines
33
Rep
2,128
Posts

 
Drives: With a sunroof and front plate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bergen County NJ

iTrader: (0)

The GTR is no doubt a beast in performance. I just hope the designers start wearing their glasses so they can see how ugly it look from the front and redesign it.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 03:21 PM   #55
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppin Fresh View Post
The GTR is no doubt a beast in performance. I just hope the designers start wearing their glasses so they can see how ugly it look from the front and redesign it.
Here we go again....very subjective. Of course the M3 looks absolutely stunning from every single angle....Germans always get it right the first time. Damn those designers in Japan. What were they thinking?

Seriously...I personally think it looks damn good from the front.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 04:58 PM   #56
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotyH View Post
The transmission is not new. Not sure where you got this pearl of info.
Go back and watch the top gear episode provided by the OP:

http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-...04_2285345.htm

Note how he says its an "all new DCT transmission for the 2012"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotyH View Post
It's also very weird how when you look into the Transmission section of a forum you find that there's problems. Very strange indeed. Especially when 90% of the cars there run 10's in the 1/4 & run circles around nearly ANY M3.
Ooh what's this? http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231020
or this http://www.m3post.com/forums/search....rchid=18021073
There are a ton of failures unrelated to any kind of abuse or modifications. Totally unacceptable. You can't run circles round anything when your trans doesn't work.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 07-31-2011 at 09:48 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 05:22 PM   #57
erio
Captain
erio's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: e92 JB M3, 2012 GTR
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Go back and watch the top gear episode provided by the OP:

http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-...04_2285345.htm

Note has hes says its an "all new DCT transmission for the 2012"



There are a ton of failures unrelated to any kind of abuse or modifications. Totally unacceptable. You can't run circles round anything when your trans doesn't work.
Top gear is dead wrong. They frequently makes mistakes. I wouldn't use them as a resource for technical info without verifying somewhere official. NAGTROC is a useful resourse. They did do some reprogramming of the tranny to provide smoother shifts, but thats it. Other changes include upgrades to suspension, engine, interior and some of the of the body. I know a guy in town that has been tracking his since 2008 without any issues. I personally don't know of any owners that had problems with the tranny and this is not a frequent topic of discussion on NAGTROC. Of course if you go looking you will find exceptions. You know, there are also some DCTs that have had to be replaced unrelated to faulty oil changes. Here are a few. There were more but I stopped looking.


http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ht=dct+failure

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ht=dct+failure

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ht=dct+failure

PS: My M3 was in the shop for a multisystem failure/limp mode during the first month with less than a 500 miles. They had to replace the junction box. It's had several other issues as well.

Last edited by erio; 07-31-2011 at 06:27 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 05:41 PM   #58
ScotyH
Bimmer me up
5
Rep
341
Posts

 
Drives: 08 M3, 2010 GTR
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Edmonton,AB

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Go back and watch the top gear episode provided by the OP:

http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-...04_2285345.htm

Note has hes says its an "all new DCT transmission for the 2012"



There are a ton of failures unrelated to any kind of abuse or modifications. Totally unacceptable. You can't run circles round anything when your trans doesn't work.
Again, there is no new transmission. End of story.

The only thing new is TCM programming for launch control.

I usually don't flap my gums about something I'm uncertain about. I don't like looking foolish.

There's tons of failures with BMW's too, My M3 was in no less than 5 times to fix CEL than came on at about 70km. No mods, no abuse, NO EXCUSE.
Appreciate 0
      07-31-2011, 09:38 PM   #59
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Given a choice to own ANY GTR over an E90 M3, I would choose the M hands down, and here is why. What the Fanboys over at top gear have failed to tell us is just how bad the GTR's transmission is. All the Pre-2012 tranny's were absolute shit! Oh, and I'm not talking about owners breaking their transmissions doing launch control either. I'm talking about failing on the track, and failing, just driving down the street in one that has never been tracked with less than 10K miles. Honestly the WORST transmission reliability of any car EVER. Notice how they mentioned that the 2012, has a "New transmission" entirely? It's not because of the minor bump in power, I assure you. It remains to be seen if this new one is just a piece of crap like all the others. Doubt me? well take a look at this section of their forums, and please, start from the beginning:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showforum=9

You need to do better than that. The transmission in the GTR is pretty nice. I could wade through M forums and find common problems that blown way out of proportion.
__________________
-2011 Cayenne Turbo
-2012 Cayenne Turbo
-2013 VelociRaptor 600
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 10:44 AM   #60
Poppin Fresh
Colonel
Poppin Fresh's Avatar
Philippines
33
Rep
2,128
Posts

 
Drives: With a sunroof and front plate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bergen County NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by erio View Post
Here we go again....very subjective. Of course the M3 looks absolutely stunning from every single angle....Germans always get it right the first time. Damn those designers in Japan. What were they thinking?

Seriously...I personally think it looks damn good from the front.
I agree, it is subjective.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 12:06 PM   #61
shay2nak
I <3 E90 M3
shay2nak's Avatar
United_States
2
Rep
288
Posts

 
Drives: 325i/Lotus Exige S
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Calipornia

iTrader: (0)

I seriously doubt that is a stock GTR. I'm 100% certain it was overboosted by nissan before given to TG. As was the case with the McLaren MP4-12c. Since millions of people around the world watch TG, the power lap times have become like the bible of car performance. So why wouldn't any manufacturer with a FI car, not tweak it for more power????

Pretty much every magazine comparo I've read between McLaren and F458, has the 458 on top, including the track times.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 01:30 PM   #62
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post
I seriously doubt that is a stock GTR. I'm 100% certain it was overboosted by nissan before given to TG. As was the case with the McLaren MP4-12c. Since millions of people around the world watch TG, the power lap times have become like the bible of car performance. So why wouldn't any manufacturer with a FI car, not tweak it for more power????

Pretty much every magazine comparo I've read between McLaren and F458, has the 458 on top, including the track times.
+1.5! I mean anybody who thinks a GTR will beat a pagani zonda R at a real track, like the Nurburgring, is completely high.

Also I hope they've made that thing more reliable. Its an expensive maintenance headache.

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/gt-...ssan-gt-r.html
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 01:35 PM   #63
Kensta335
Brigadier General
Kensta335's Avatar
48
Rep
3,634
Posts

 
Drives: 335i Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal 626

iTrader: (4)

^^ reaching pretty bad if you have to bring up a link that's from 2009.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 02:08 PM   #64
adc
Brigadier General
53
Rep
4,148
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Most those that say GTR isn't exciting to drive can't drive... (...) Accessport on the car, and a midpipe... turn off traction control, and drifting around corners is as fun and intoxicating as any car on the planet.
I don't doubt it. How much of that is you, and how much is the car?

On my first test drive of an Evo VIII, on the first corner as we exited the dealer's lot, I had the car in a beautiful 4 wheel drift. My wife shot me this incredibly admiring and incredulous glance. I could have taken the credit, but that wasn't me by any shot - it was the clever AWD doing the heavy lifting, and I was just there for the ride.

It was the same thing all over in the GT-R, just happening at a higher rate of speed.

To be totally honest I get more thrills out of driving my 93 Miata on the same fast & winding roads. I just sneak out of the house at night, drop the top and terrorize the night insects with my 100BHP monster lol.

Quote:
I'll forever find it funny, to hear a BMW driver praise a BMW manual transmission... they have got to be the absolute biggest POS of any/all manuals I've ever driven!
But still more satisfying to some than any DCT on the planet.

A lot of people complain about BMW's manual transmission and I'm sure there's a lot to criticize, but a funny thing happens with it on track - it just seems to get out of the way and just lets you do your thing.

Quote:
To each his/her own I guess.
Finally, you got it.

Nothing wrong with liking it, and nothing wrong with a counterpoint.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 02:47 PM   #65
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
+1.5! I mean anybody who thinks a GTR will beat a pagani zonda R at a real track, like the Nurburgring, is completely high.

Also I hope they've made that thing more reliable. Its an expensive maintenance headache.

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/gt-...ssan-gt-r.html


Uggh. You have no idea what you're talking about .
__________________
-2011 Cayenne Turbo
-2012 Cayenne Turbo
-2013 VelociRaptor 600
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2011, 03:06 PM   #66
Singletrack
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
Singletrack's Avatar
United_States
43
Rep
3,819
Posts

 
Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 12 AW X5d
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post

Lastly... the DCT to Manual... I'll forever find it funny, to hear a BMW driver praise a BMW manual transmission... they have got to be the absolute biggest POS of any/all manuals I've ever driven! To put down the DCT BMW offers is pure ignorance... the DCT offered by BMW is one of the best.

To each his/her own I guess.
Dave
Oh come on - that's just absurd. Is it the best? No, but it is not a piece of shit.

Some of my personal experience as an example - worse than my 04 STi 6 speed, better than my Audi A6 2.7T 6sp, and my buddy's Vantage 6sp - a 130k+ car.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST