[Obioban]

Originally Posted by late apex

What would you like to see BMW offer? The M cars are faster now than they have ever been, yet they're more efficient and luxurious. As long as BMW continues to improve performance, I don't think they've completely turned their backs on enthusiasts. They've simply taken on the challenge of appealing the masses while still offering something that enthusiasts can use on track or canyon roads.

I don't care about "faster", I'm not racing. I want a car that is involving to drive. Circa 2002, every BMW was the best driving car in its class and everyone was involving/enjoyable. Today, their non M cars drive worse than the lexus/caddy competitors. Similarly, I don't want "luxury", as inevitably that really means isolation from the driving experience.

Traditionally, the non M BMWs were as sporty as they could be while keeping them comfortable enough for normal people to enjoy driving every day. The M cars took it a step further, compromising civility for absolute involvement in the driving experience. That's what I want. And deal breakers for me include electronic power steering, turbos, fake exhaust noise generators, automatic transmissions of any sort, run flats, etc.

What would I like to see BMW make? I'd like an e36 sized sedan with carbon fiber tub (ala i3) and an N52 with a 6mt. I'd like an i8 with all the electronic garbage removed and an S65 instead.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I feel the same way, especially about wanting one of every model line around '02.

But what you said today, about the F30 vs IS and ATS, well it's less about BMW and more about the competency of the competition. And if you really drive the other cars, and you BUY a car based on the whole package, the BMW is still the winner.

Me personally, I like having both old and new. I love having an E36/7 as a toy and the F30 as a competent DD. I would not want either car to try and do both duties for me.

I disagree completely. Modern BMWs are a significantly worse driving experience than their previous counterparts. The engines lag, the manuals suck to shift, the tires sucks, and the steering feel makes pushing the car to the limit... dicey. The competition absolutely has stepped up their came, but BMW completely fell off theirs (and onto a different game).

Originally Posted by Iron Man

I think this is pretty common with a lot of companies. They start out making outstanding products that appeal to the discerning enthusiast, who are very outspoken about the product. More people hear about how great the product is, volume grows, the company grows, though eventually bean counters/MBAs take over and their mantra becomes volume, volume, volume...(for "survival" and "shareholder value")

Eventually, this alienates a large portion of their original enthusiast customers, who start to look elsewhere... I think as long as BMW continues to make real ///M models, they have a product for an enthusiast. The new models are just morphing at the moment due to all of the emission and CAFE changes coming in the next few years. If their engineers have any influence in the organization at all, they will continue to refine the product. Of course, the ///M badge whoring they have been doing lately is ludicrous.

I don't think they make any real M models any more. Fake noise generators, turbos, SUVs, automated gear boxes. Moreover, what's "motorsport" about any of them (which is the very definition of M)? What current M car wouldn't be totally out of place on a track?