[tazam3]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Man. this is too funny...

I feel the same way.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Am I actually reading yet another thread, where an established BMW ECU tuner is having to argue with the same group of 20-something BMW enthusiasts from Southern California? Guys who have never built or tuned any BMW vehicle in their entire life? Is this really happening?

LMAO, i guess were all just dummies compared to him. We should all just listen to him and shut up.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Instead of soaking up the knowledge that is being graciously offered by Sal, some of you guys are attacking the man like he's some sort of nut case for suggesting that Methanol Injection is NOT exactly the greatest idea for tuning a forced induction BMW engine.

Hello? He is stating methanol will blow your motor period. That requires an argument, a very big statement imo sorry.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Seriously, it's an all too predictable pattern here guys. The moment someone says that methanol isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, some of you get all bent out of shape. Why? Because a few tuners in socal swears by it. I honestly think that has a lot to do with it. As I have repeatedly stated over and over again, a properly engineered forced induction supercharger or turbocharger DOES NOT REQUIRE THE USE OF METHANOL to make additional power or to reduce IAT's. (to delay the onset of detonation) For some reason, you guys are fixated on Methanol as the go to solution for these two purposes. The problem with that mindset, os that Methanol is not a free and easy "fix" at all.

Its called pump gas 91 octane, guys want an easy way of getting a higher octane rating. This has been done for years with no problem. As i mentioned before a tuner is supposed to tune the car properly without meth, meth is just an addition for more power/safety due to 91 oct availability.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

In fact, Methanol only complicates the tuning for the guy writing the forced induction software, and if a Methanol pump or nozzle fails at high boost...bye bye engine. (fact)

Thats if the car is dependent on meth. And some meth kits have safety features against it. Some even have there own knock control. (fact)

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

It's a crutch that only adds unnecessary risk, and it lowers the overall chances of having a reliable trouble-free forced induction kit. (generally speaking)

Again, the car is supposed to have a safe tune already. Meth is not adding risk, unless it is necessarily tuned for it and does not have built in safety features.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Apparently, many of the people who are auguring with Sal, have never seen a highly-engineered BMW forced induction production kit before.

True, i forgot you have a 1200HP M3 that doesnt even run meth (in the middle of installing one now ).

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

And while we're discussing tuning, I doubt that many of you truly understand that it's possible to build a low-boost BMW supercharger kit WITHOUT an intercooler.

The key word in that statement is low boost for anyone who isn't paying attention...

For the S65 engine, 4-5 psi of boost adds about 70 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

By contrast...9-10 psi of boost adds about 140 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

That's a HUGE difference in regards to tuning, so your FI intercooling methodology must adapt to this basic truth.

The average Air-to-air or water-to-air intercooling setup (on a BMW N54, S54, or S65) FI car approx. 60% efficient in mild weather conditions. (70 deg F /w/ less than 50% humidity) That means the intercooler will reduce the charged air temps by 60%.

Using simple math, an E9x M3 running 4-5 psi of boost and no cooling system on a 75 deg F day will have an IAT of approx. 140-150 deg F. Which is still in the safe zone (tuning wise) by a comfortable margin.

On the other hand...a 9-10 psi car with an intercooling system on a 75 deg F day will have IAT's of approx. 130-140 deg F. (after subtracting the effective intercooling heat reduction)

Anyone who says running no intercooling on a E9x M3 supercharger is dangerous on low boost...also needs to say its dangerous to run 9-10 psi of boost on a car with intercooling, as the IAT's are only about 10-20 deg F apart in reality. Compressing air molecules creates heat, and the more boost pressure that you cram into the engine...the more heat you are going to create. (which then needs to be neutralized)

The funny part that most BMW enthusiast don't seem to understand is this...

On some intercooling systems that are designed and packaged with an FI kit, (where no measurable IAT data was complied during R&D or the prototype testing phase), there is no definitive way to gauge how efficient the intercooler system actually is, so in theory, you could actually have the exact same IAT's on a higher 9 psi kit...and a low 4.5 psi kit.

If the cooling system on the high-boost car has a lower efficiency rating of say 50%, this is not only possible, it a very likely

Most people have no clue how efficient their cooling system is, because only a few FI providers even bother to actually test them in extreme conditions. A responsible FI provider will do extensive testing on the efficiency of their intercooling system, and they will record the results. That data will be used later on to fine tune the car. (since the efficiency of the FI intercooling system is not a complete 'mystery')

The heat reduction factor of any commercially viable FI kit should always be known upfront. That keeps the FI provider from wondering if their intercooler will be up to the task when the supercharger or turbocharger is experiencing extreme loads and high ambient air temps.

Doing your homework ahead of time, will also eliminate the need to implement unnecessary add-ons like Water/Methanol (to cool the IAT's), due to concerns about the efficiency of the intercooling method used, or the safety of the ECU tuning.

If everything was designed and tested thoroughly, there is absolutely no need to pile on additional engine intake cooling devices to keep the engine safe. The engine should remain safe under all operating conditions the day the kit is released for sale to the general public. Period.

Seems like you are a production kit engineer? Is this true? Do you know everything certain tuners do while testing their kits? Of course tuners should be testing real world conditions and lots of other tests during R & D.

It seems like you are taking shots at certain companies. Judging from this argument blowing up after Drew's impressive actions, it is obvious. Is it true that you're favorite fi company is ESS? Does this have anything to do with your post?

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

The only time Water/Methanol should be used on a FI kit, is when the hardware package has not been properly engineered to maximize the available airflow, or the intercooling method fails to reduce the IAT's to manageable level for aggressive driving conditions. If no one is sure how effective the intercooling system will perform (in a very predictable manner), or the effective air flow is not as close to 100% for each application, then performance will suffer and a variety of overheating issues will crop up when the bar is raised.

Wrong again. Im putting a meth kit on my car after running 91 octane without meth for awhile. Are you saying my car has not been properly engineered? Is running 32psi aggressive enough for you? My car has never over heated nor even past optimal coolant temps.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Just because Sal's professional opinion doesn't 'jive' with your own pre-disposition on the use of Methanol, doesn't give you guys the right to demand an explanation that YOU will accept. Sal doesn't have to prove anything to you guys. He's a BMW tuner, and guess what...you're not.

He has given no real explanation, no real proof has been posted. Sorry we cant argue with him and none of us have any education except for you.

No offense but what FI applications has he tuned? Im not too informed on who he is but i sure as hell will argue a point i believe is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

If you want to talk to Sal on his level, here is my suggestion for anyone who wants to argue with him about Methanol (or BMW ECU tuning)...

a) Go back to college and get a degree in Software Engineering.
b) Apprentice under a well-known industry recognized Software Engineer that writes BMW ECU software for a living (at least 3-5 years), so that you can appreciate the complexities of what you can and cannot do with modern BMW ECU's.
c) Open your own BMW tuning shop, where you can build and tune any BMW car under the sun.
d) Come back here and resume your conversation with Sal...THEN you can tell him how wrong he is about Methanol and tuning...

Any takers?

Is this a joke? Thats one of the most ridiculous things i have ever read..

You're the guy that stated PG's car was so impressive that it would destroy any car out there (that post was deleted after i responded saying "huh").


Wooo, that took alot out of me..