[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

There is no inconsistency.

Some time ago you agreed with me that:

1. Engineering sophistication and power per liter roughly scale together.
2. Part of what contributes to the M3s best engine metric (its broad and flat torque curve) goes hand in hand with it high specific output.

You've now entirely changed course. That OK if you want to, just realize you have.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

You are somehow equating carefully built components made of expensive materials with engineers always striving for max power per liter. This is not rocket science regardless of what you think. What actually is closer to rocket science is to improve engine efficiency so as to extract maximum mileage from a given power and torque curve, and make it blow butterflies out the tailpipe while it does so.

Neither is anywhere close to rocket science. I worked closely with quite a few genuine rocket scientists and ALL of the few companies in the US that actually make rockets. So cliche or literal I know a thing or two about the field. Nonetheless you can't ignore the correlation between sophistication, advanced design, material choices (and costs) and high specific output. That being said more good and advanced engineering is going into efficiency these day, AGAIN (and again and again...) I never said otherwise.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

What I meant was that even econoboxes are getting good power from each liter, with obviously low build costs. Listen, if the M guys were interested in max power per liter, would 104 be where they stopped? Hell, a decade ago the S2000 was at 120 HP per liter, for $30 grand.

Again, what percent of models (not of vehicles obviously) have a specific output greater than the M3, please answer? My super rough / initial guess was in the low single digit percentages. IIRC Honda had some big problems with the first year of the S2000 and consequently lowered the redline in its second model year. Either way that engine was and is also special in my evaluation exactly for this reason and of course for its driving character.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

What I am saying, and all I am saying, is that slamming one engine in preference to another based on power per liter is sheer nonsense. Power per liter is almost immaterial most of the time, and it gets lost amongst a myriad of other factors.

To each their own. I do agree it is not the most important factor (and have and wil continue to do so again and again). However, it does go hand in hand with other features that are desirable. It is up to each person to decide which metrics matter to them and part of specific output is about the character of the engine perhaps even more so than its raw output. Also I don't think anyone (certainly I didn't) was slamming the Stang engine due to low specific output.

Here is another exercise. Make a list of the top (say 10 or so) specific output engines (NA ones, of course). Do you or do you not now also have a list of some of the best engines and best sports cars around? You're probably aware that the Ferrari 458 Italia sits at the very top of the list, right?

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

You know I have inflamed the faithful in the past by saying that the M3 would work better with an LS3 in it, or an LS7. I do that to make a point (and it's fun to bait the faithful, after all), not to actually recommend it. The M3 is a unique animal, and some of that uniqueness would be lost. Not that I care, but I know others would.

Would the M3 work better with the new Mustang motor in it?

Probably so.

And indeed when you magazine race, race on specs or theorize about swaps such as this you do lose sight of the importance of character. You yourself have sung the praises of the M3 (the Mongoose as you say) especially when the tach needle is past the 2 o'clock point. Without a doubt a significant portion of that character would be lost if the car had a Vette or Stang motor in it. And to most, whether or not they'll admit it, this matters and it is related to specific output.