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      03-13-2011, 07:07 PM   #112
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Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The analogy works fine. The term in question in our case happens "automatic", so it is a more general term, but the semantics of the debate are the same as in my hypothetical. The fact is that, as that term is applied to the behavior of a transmission, the DCT fits the definition to a tee, just like ATCE fits the definition of a V6.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this as well... You had your analogy that made you case and I had mine.

Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Remember, I've already fully acknowledged that the DCT can be classed differently from a traditional planetary automatic. I've even said it makes sense to do this depending on context. The issue here is that you won't allow DCT to be classed in similar terms to any transmission that does not have two concentric clutches, regardless of whether a given term is suitably abstract such that the mechanical coupling and, in fact, the entire internals of the transmissions are not even in play.
Hmmm, the first sentence above seems to be something somewhat new. I know you've said things along those lines but you also strongly make the case for 2 categories only. As for my preference/opinion you don't have it quite right. When in automatic mode and when speaking about the user interface alone it absolutely makes sense to refer to a DCT as an automatic. But again, IMHO, only under those circumstances. Thus it is simply superior to say it has an automatic mode!

Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Earlier you suggested the term automanual fit the DCT, right? Now, let's see if what I just said in the last sentence of that last paragraph is true or not. Here's the hypothesis:

Both the M-DCT and a BMW's Steptronic, a modern planetary transmission, are automanuals. True or false?

And you're answer to this is?
No, automated manual or automanual is in my view a transmission that is a "traditional manual" (or parallel manual) from the internal construction and feel/experience perspectives but due to mechatronics has an automatic mode. Again I also think simply that calling an apple an apple is superior, i.e. calling a dual clutch a dual clutch is superior to calling it an automanual. Also, just to be clear I think automated manual is much more clear than automanual. The former describes exactly what the unit is on the inside and how the mechatronics work to add capability, the latter just blurs the two words in a more opaque way.

Again with the wealth of transmission types and all of their associated implications (feel, performance, user interface, speed, efficiency) there is so little to be gained from forcing everything into 2 categories. Call an apple and apple and have multiple categories.

Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Now, this is still a hybrid - because like you said in your post "Nonetheless, still 2 engines in parallel". The prius crowd doesn't like my car because it doesn't have an electric motor. But hey, I still got the diesel there, and it is very efficient. Doesn't matter to them though, they won't acknowledge that my new beast is a hybrid, and refuse to call it that.
Words evolve to have connotative implications. This is certainly true with the term hybrid as applied to automobiles. In that regard hybrid in its non automotive sense would be perfect for such a jet-diesel weirdo car. Obviously hoards of greenies (consumer level) as well as the OEMs themselves would not feel it is an appropriate term. Both are basically correct.
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |

Last edited by swamp2; 03-13-2011 at 07:16 PM.