Originally Posted by carve
Agree to disagree? Tell me: what is the punishment for Apostacy as instructed by the Koran?
Islam is a group of people with common beliefs and practices. That's like saying you can't suggest a certain country, or company, can't take actions.
I know what you are trying to do. You want to take things out of context and try paint Islam as a religion of zero tolerance and harsh punishments, old-fashioned in thinking etc.
To understand the Quran you must read the whole book and read about the life of our holy prophet which explains the teachings of the Quran. In the life of our prophet I cannot emphasize enough about his teachings of justice, peace, patience etc.
It would literally take days to show everything. Our prophets teachings tell us to be kind and patient to our parents, orphans, poor people, the dead, neighbours, even animals as small as ants. Our prophet and the teachings of the Quran tell us that Allah is not pleased with people who have hot tempers and act aggressively. Infact Islam tells us to not even speak if we do not have a good word to say.
Therefore, it is illogical to show small parts of the religion out of context and show it to be violent and hateful etc. I do not deny that Islam has played parts in wars through history just like any other religion or country or people. However, you must study history to see why those wars took place, Islam defended itself. Our religion teaches us clearly you cannot spread the word of Islam by FORCING it on others.
Infact, in history our prophet even make peace agreements so that muslims and jews could live side by side.
Also, one thing I do admit is that Islam does have punishments. Listen, as I have explained before NOOONE can impose the meaning of "right" and "wrong" on ANYONE. What gives anyone the right to say this is right or wrong? You cannot even speak of international laws, treaties or human rights because these things change all the time through history. We dont even share the same values as our grandparents because we think they are too old fashioned. Every country has different laws too and that causes conflict.
As I explained before many countries still believe in capital punishment and other punishments. Dont try paint a picture as if it is something old fashioned and Islam is wrong for having this. In addition to this you say Islam punishes for trivial things. I know you are talking about drinking, stealing, sex outside marriage etc. and as I have explained before you may think these things are right but that is just YOUR opinion. That doesnt mean Islam is barbaric just because you think it is.
Instead, I say the way the world is today is because there are so many different laws across different lands and these laws change all the time. Not one country has had the same laws throughout time because they change their opinion all the time. Islam created a set of universal laws about how to live our lives so that everyone lives to the same standard and is afforded the same rights and protections til the end of time. Is that really such a bad thing?
Look at the problems you have now with drugs, alcohol, rape, murder, theft, fraud, gambling, overcrowded jails. These are all problems that Islam deals with and in modern times the TAXPAYER has to pay for these problems and society in general when innocent people are victim to such horrendous crimes. I know for a FACT theft would reduce if you knew you had a risk of having your hands chopped off. (As always, there are certain conditions for all punishments such as witnesses and proof etc.)
According to you, I can't say Islam can be at fault for anything since it is not a person. Islam does not NEED to defend itself from cartoon or burning books, and it should not defend itself by killing innocent people, including children, apostates, or those who've commited non-lethal crimes. Whether you like it or not, this DOES reflect on Islam, and quite poorly.
That is exactly what I'm saying. You are still yet without simple understanding that Islam is a religion. Above I quoted you are saying Islam is a people. Can you really understand what you are saying? Islam is a religion.
Muslim is the name assigned to the people who follow the religion. While Muslims may be at fault for what they do, that does not mean they were influenced by the religion to commit terrible acts of murder.
Can't you see that these people are committing acts of terror because there are conflicts across the world in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine etc.?
I'm NOT justifying what they are doing because I think it is TOTALLY WRONG but I'm telling you that is why they kill people. To make a point that there is conflict in the world and they feel oppressed. Noone decided to blow themselves up without reason. They are doing it because they feel it is the best way to get their point across (as you hear in their speeches they are doing it because of Iraq etc.) and then they try to manipulate the meaning of the Quran to justify what they do. That has NO reflection on the religion. This is not about Islam but rather about human conflict and people trying to hide behind Islam.
I've repeatedly agreed that the problem-people in Islam is a minority, so stop bringing it up as though we disagree. My problem is
1) This minority of 1.5B people is a LOT of people
2) The rest of them don't do much to control or subdue this minority
3) Their actions are justifiable under the Koran, and they believe the Koran is the word of Allah
That still does not fault Islam. I agree there is a problem, but the problem is not Islam. The problem is hugely political and comes down to a age old problem of people fighting over lands and laws. Those Muslims blowing themselves up want Palestine to be free from trouble with Israel, want troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan and want to practise their law freely without people telling them they cannot wear the hijab or build a mosque in a certain place. I am not agreeing/disagreeing with these demands in this post but I am telling you that is why there are problems in the world.
These people then try to make a point and hide behind Islam. That does not mean Islam is the problem. Also is doesnt matter the size of the problem you still cannot link it to Islam.
For example, look at the mess with Iraq. That is one of the hugest problems in the world right now for so many reasons. However, the magnitude/size of the problem still does not justify blaming America or UK as countries. Just because Bush/Blair fucked up that has ZERO reflection on the people from that country. I know for a fact most people in these lands are peaceful and abide by basic human rights such as not killing innocent people. Therefore just because Bush/blair try to hide behind their countries as if they represent their countries you cannot blame them. You have to understand what the REAL problem is and who is REALLY to blame.
It's similar to blaming parents every time kids do wrong. Totally illogical. Most people understand this except you and a MINORITY of people thankfully.