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      03-09-2008, 11:13 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
scotty…scotty, I feel anger. I feel defeat coming from your words. Don’t you understand that you can’t debate me on facts and evidence? Your belief is based on anything but evidence. My trust is supported by it. What hyperbole? BE specific?
I'm not angry. Perhaps my writing style came across as angry. But, I assure you, I am not angry. If we were debating matters of science then we could debate facts based on science. If we are debating something in scripture, we can debate in the realm of Bible Study, faith, and history. To merge the two approaches, you need to debate a Christian Apologist. I am bored with those type of debates, so I do not participate in them.

Noah, parting the red sea, resurrection…should I continue? Facts please! Evidence?
You question the power of God because of your unbelief. The Jews were given incredible proof in the desert, yet they rebelled. Yet many didn't believe. If you see God's power every day, soon you lose sight of wherefrom that power came.

Christians think critically when they negotiate a lease for their 335i! But they fail miserably when it comes to more important questions. You wouldn’t vote for anyone that isn’t a Christian fundie!!!
What important questions? You have not participated in interesting Bible studies. Most of the time the way you use the term "critical thinking" it comes across as meaning against all things that are not based on empirical evidence. That is a narrow view of critical thinking. Perhaps a review of what constitutes critical thinking is in order. Critical thinking does not require the scientific method at all.

More anger…How about this question:
You claim that JC is the son of God and savior. We are all sinners and we’re going to hell if we don’t believe it. Facts? Evidence? Experiments?
If you don't believe there is a God, and you don't believe that you can know him, then there is no basis for a discussion. You can remain an orphan.

I’ve read it all. It seemed bizarre, morally outdated and cruel. I can support this with facts. We can debate this elsewhere.
When I had just become a teenager, I read the Old Testament. Many of my views about the Old Testament were like yours. If you are closed to revelation, then you cannot understand it. Even if you were to memorize the words that would not give you understanding. For me, it wasn't until I was 21 or 22 years old that I read the New Testament. At that time I was open to revelation. Then the New Testament and the Old Testament both made perfect sense. If you were open to revelation, we may be able to have a discussion of substance on scripture.

I agree. You are definitely well educated and debate worthy. I’d like to have a beer with you. You are a facts guy when it comes to everything except Christianity.
That could be an interesting talk over a beer, but quiet places are usually where discussions of substance are productive.

I dismiss “beliefs” that are not supported by evidence, NOT because they are different than mine. I thrive when someone proves me wrong! I just learned something. It must be supported by experimental data though.
You might consider my point about critical thinking. For many different reasons not all matters to ponder are subject to empirical evidence... probably more than are supported by any kind of scientific evidence.

Anyone can claim anything, and if there are enough people to support it, it becomes mainstream. Scientology comes to mind.
There is plenty that has nothing to do with faith or religion that can be so categorized. Cults are merely one type of example.

You feel angry because in this day and age it is extremely difficult for the religious to debate science based on facts. It has been a common trait on these debates that Christians become frustrated. I’d be frustrated too if I had to defend extraordinary claims with NO evidence.
I'll speak for myself. I am not frustrated at all. I am at peace.

I offered this advice to the religious as a face saving escape. Just claim that you “believe” without proof, and stay away from arguments that are based on facts. If you think about it, isn’t religion defined by it? Belief without evidence.
Evidence does not always lead to belief. Many have seen and have heard yet did not believe. It is easier to believe with evidence, but then free will is less available, and the consequences of ignorance are then greater. You would not enter the promised land.

The sheep know their shephard's call. If you are of another flock, you do not follow.

Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
e90im, what is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I don't believe in fairytales. I like them though. But I know they are NOT true. You do.
That's not any answer to the question. This is something you should be able to expound on with great detail and fervor. What is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?

Why do you go to a doctor when your kid is sick? Shouldn’t a prayer fix it?
Of course you take the child to the doctor. It is wise to pray as well.

If you were thirsty, you wouldn't need to have a miracle of water coming out of a rock if you could get ice water from the refrigerator door. If you were in a mine-shaft that had caved in and you were thirsty, you might pray for a miracle and that your alternative to water would sustain your life. You would still radio for help if that were working.

Prayer doesn't fix anything. It might bring inner peace. Prayer is communication with God. God will do as he will. At times he will act on our heartfelt desire. But that is not a foregone conclusion. Often, our faith is too small and our sincerity is lacking.
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