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      12-22-2007, 07:31 PM   #193
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
So, this how you apologize to people? Usually people who have an ounce of sincerety don't use the word "but" in there apology, nor do they try and claim they are some kind of victim as to justify having a childish tantrum. This so called apology only bolsters my original question and really demonstrates you inability to ever really admit to being wrong about anything:
Take the apology for what it was. It's too bad if my apology does not meet your strict, by the etiquitte books "rules" for an apology. I am sorry about the use of my language, that's it. I am not sorry about being firm, aggressive nor defensive. You are being just at improper by not accepting the apology and whining about it. You are pushing my buttons, it's painfully clear, there is no reason for it and you like it. Talk about immature. All of this should be about the GT-R and or the M3 but you have none of your own facts, no arguments and nothing novel to add. It's simple. Hence the meta-posts which are so atrocious I can't let them go without my defense.

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Do you have the ability to simply admit you are wrong without saying another word? Your answer:


How is one able to misinterpret this?
That is 100% misinterpreted because you will not stop taking things out of context. My reply was not a direct/isolated reply to the direct/ioslated question above. How many times can we rehash this? My reply was about specifcally admitting I am or am not wrong about their being current evidence for the GT-R being under-rated. Your ability to make this seem as my universal answer/opinion is convenient for you, but is simply and blatantly false and quoting out of context.

You did indeed miss the example of me being wrong, admitting it, thanking the fellow and moving right along didn't you? Please read, it is so tiring that you won't. This has happened (me being wrong) a few times in the past here and the same thing happens. Just because you can't point to an event between us does not make it universal fact. This is such a clear fallacy of a biased sample and guess what - YOU ARE WRONG.

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Ok lets do it. And so your question for me is? Looks like you ability to control your emotions gets the best of you once again and you rip on me for not answering the right question then forget to point out your "demanded" question?
I have the right to make a simple demand to you in a discussion. When you never stick to any point for more than 1/10th of a thread you avoid key/central issues. And this never ends. You are so slippery and never want to be pinned down and it's obvious to me (and probably most of us) why.

You misinterpret and misrepresent the explicitly repeated and clarified meaning of my quotes and miss key questions that I ask you. It is painfully obvious that you simply DON'T READ MY POSTS. Give it a try, you might see much that renders 80% of your replies repitition, confusion and irrelevant.

I am not going to give you the luxury of repeating my "KEY" question. It was labeled as such the first time I made it, it was painfully obvious and explicit, and if you will simply read you will see it. If you want to maintain any sense of dignity or ability to debate in a reasonable fashion you will answer the question. THE KEY QUESTION. When you do your inconsistency and fallacies will be highlighted.

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Flip flopping again? So are you now saying flowery things like back seat room and whether it is a better daily driver are of great importance, since you are primarily going to choose the M3 as a daily driver? So then wouldn't the E90 M3 be a better choice, almost identical performance numbers to the E92 and better back seats room and the convenience of four doors make it the better daily driver? Or are you just not a sedan guy? Anyway, I thought you said "numbers speak much louder." So if I may try this again, does the similarily priced Z06 and GT-R's numbers speak softer than the M3's and does the M3 take the checkered flag over these cars?
Funny, funny. Back seats and back seat room are not flowery. How can you keep getting the simplest of things wrong? The appropriate metrics for back seats and back seat room are boolean (do they have them), two distance measurements (head and leg room) and one volume measurement (volume per passenger). Logic, numbers, wow what a suprise?

Sure the Z06 whoops the M3 in performance big time (what a boring and foregone conclusion...) but I just can not figure out why you want to continue with these comparisons? Both the Z06 and GT-R are phenomenal cars for price to performance, besting European super cars costing twice as much. BUT IMO THEY ARE NOT CLOSE M3 COMPETITORS. How many times can I say this? As you know, they both are about $10k more expensive than the base M3. Some current estimates I have seen are estimating the GT-R to be going for $15k-$20k over sticker. If so, which I think is likely, this also makes these cars much more remote "competitors", if you can even still use that word. I have explained my own personal rationale and criteria for choosing a car to you over and over and over again. Literally a half dozen times on different threads. My criteria pushes me heavily toward the M3. What is the point? You have to like the looks before you get to an analysis of price to performance (well at least I do). As well, the car has to be in the basic size, type, class, price range etc. first before other important criteria are invoked. This is just my process and it is all so simple and obvious to me. Probably not that much different than most folks process. If you have a different process, different criteria, whatever, that's fine. If a Z06 or GT-R or Cayman S or C63 AMG or whatever it is tickles your fancy the most, BUY ONE. You can have your reasons and I can have mine and they will never be the same. Why the obsession with my criteria and rationale for choosing a car? I certainly don't exhibit the same obsession here as you.

And, as long as this keeps going I will continue to claim that among its close competitors the M3 offers the best price to performance ratio you can find. It also equals or bests the performance of cars costing $25-$40k more. My list of these competitors roughly includes the following (RS4, C63 AMG, IS-F, Vantage V8, CTS-V, Jaguar XKR, 997S, R8). Again some are closer competitors with the E90 than the E92 and some are a bit more of a stretch than others (R8 based on size, seat count for example). This is my view of "close" competitors based on a combination of class, price, performance, size, etc. I suppose a reasonable argument based on price and performance could put the GT-R and Z06 in any list containing the 997S and R8 but those are cars are on the periphery anyway so sure, some subjectivity in involved. Everyone must have their own "lists".

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Narcissism, sincerety, and sorry do not go together. Hard to have an honest and fair debate with someone who believes he is always right and others are always wrong, even when it comes to something as "flowery and "subjective" as steering, right?
I really can't help it if you continue to make obviously incorrect statements typically about the engineering/design and technical nature of cars. You do it time and time again and usually get called on it. Steering here was another example where your lack of understanding makes you wrong. Bad and good elements of steering "feel" can be designed and engineered in to a car and to some extent separated. It is simple again and I absolutely will not admit I am wrong when I am right. The truth hurts and this is what often drives your attacks and obsession.

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Listen to yourself Swamp. Are you not able to see any hypocracy in your statement above? So you do not demand answers to your question or question motivation or rehash the past or make "meta posts" and engage in credibility attacks? Or is it, as you suggest, you are once again right, the person who always takes the higher ground, and I am once again simply and white, and very scientific don't you think? This may come as a surprise to you but scientists who interpret the science and statistics with all their perceptions and biases, effectively turn an objective field like science into a somewhat subjective field. For example: a court room scenerio where the scientist for the defense is arguing one way for the DNA evidence and the scientist for prosecution is arguing the opposite way for the very same DNA results. Heard of global warming?

So, do not try to kid yourself into believing I am so naive as to think that our perceptions and biases do not effect our interpretations of a cars performance numbers. Unless of course your are so naive to believe that it doesn't.
Ruff, this particular one on one duel was started by you, elevated by you and maintained by you. It began roughly on your post #148, butting in to my debate with Bruce. Remember that? Unlkely. I will remind you.

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
You appear to have this enormous ego that could never be satiated, coupled with your need to defend it and massage it, ad nauseam. Do you have the ability to simply admit you are wrong without saying another word?
By the way that was the whole post, verbatim and nothing taken out of context. Please answer. Was this on topic, was it car related, was it an attack, please do answer?

Sure it takes two to tango but I am very much in defense mode here and you know why - your attacks on the core of my beliefs, motivations, methods, etc.

Science can indeed be full of bias, politics, hidden motivations and the like. My methods, analysis, interpretation, theories, conclusions and even my speculations are 100% open to scrutiny, yours, the forums, the net and the whole world. We'll simply have to agree to disagree, you think I am hopelessly biased, fudge and fake numbers, am a fanboy and do bad science. I believe the direct opposite and will let my posts stand for their content to be judged by this community. Many of which has explicitly appreciated their novelty, insight, accuracy and value. Period. Perhaps you can bring some of these things here other than whining, attacking, focusing on prose and entirely subjective issues.