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      12-22-2007, 04:51 AM   #187
Lieutenant General
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Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Originally Posted by ruff View Post

First of all, your post and the tone of it speaks volumes. I will just leave it at that.

You said I didn't answer the question that you so angrily "demanded". I believe you mean, I didn't answer why I think your assumption is wrong that the GT-R may be underrated? Below is my first response to your thread, as you can see, I didn't questioned whether the GT-R is underrated, in fact, I would probably agree with you that it is and wished the M3 would have been underrated. So my answer is Yes I agree with you based on your data. I hope that makes you feel better.

Is this Narcissism in all its splendor or an angry outburst? Maybe a bit of both?

You continually use your simulation numbers to put the M3 in a good light and it's competition in a negative light, especially before the actual numbers are out. Once the actual numbers are out, and you find out that the M3 didn't stack up so well to the C63 and GT-R, as you so humbly predicted, then you wave the only flag you have left, which is the white flag and say the competition is hp underrated, which indeed it may be. My point is, your pre- actual number analysis has not lived up to your pre-actual number hype for the M3 against the competition. How come? How about this, maybe If you wouldn't have been so biased towards the M3 from the get go, you would of have originally predicted the better C63 and GT-R 0-60 times... just a thought. My point is: bias effects the numbers we want to see and not see.

Now that you are once again so interested in a cars performance vs flowery things such as badges and steering feel/response, maybe you should check out the GT-R and Z06, since their performance numbers and similar price indicate that they should take the all important checkered flag over your vaunted M3. Agree or disagree?

Oh ya, the "flowery" steering feedback does effect a cars performance, especially in the corners. You don't believe it? Hit a corner at high speed with numb steering feel and see where you confidence and speed is in the next corner.

So you prefer a number steering feel that transmitts less feedback than your E36. Remember, less feed back means less feel, period, pretty simple theory to follow. The OP of thread was comparing the M3 to a 3 series and was dissapointed in the M3's steering feel compared to the 3 series. How again did my inferrence misrepresent you? Are you now saying you like more feed back, but only the good feed back. Remember the theory is really simple, feedback is feedback, both good and bad. You can't have it both ways ie good feed back only and numbness to bad feedback.

Actually, I am a bit embarrassed for you, but still respect you. As we both know, profanity and anger does not enhance one's argument, it only diminishes it.
Ruff, I apologize for the poor language. There is never much of an excuse for that, but you are really pushing my hot buttons on some things very dear to me and that I am very sensitive about. That should be obvious and I think you simply enjoy it. Not cool and also not cool that you NEVER EVER accept my word on anything about character or motivation. It is one thing to disagree and debate and to often come to different conclusions, but you are just going way too far here.

Let's keep going... You did not answer the question I demanded that you answer. You answered the wrong one. Again it seems you just do not read nor understand the points of anything I write.

I agree 100% that simulation is garbage in and garbage out. I very much like to classify it that way, it is its essense. It can, therefore, be totally biased. But again your false assumptions about my use of such tools is so insidious it makes me nothing but an evil liar. Which I am not. Let me understand this. I know what various inputs to the software should be, but I'm so insecure about my own personal car preferences that I purposefully (or maybe even funnier - subconsciously) stack the inputs against cars that I often admire very much, but simply are not my favorites and that I don't want to buy myself? Ruff, this is so offensive and categorically false it is actually a bit humorous/entertaining. Every accusation and insinuation you make along these lines is so inaccurate and untrue it astounds me. With science comes responsibility and despite my opinions, my use of science is governed by a life long study and commitment to it. Although passionate and stubborn about cars, I simply will not abuse science nor simulation for these petty reasons. Perhaps you will recall that simulation is also my profession (loosely, not actively doing it as an engineer these days but have, now on the sales and marketing side - TECHNICAL sales that is). Remember to me science>cars, truth>ego, engineering>driving skill. Maybe someday you will understand one or two simple things about me, but not yet, not even close. No matter how many times I state my goals and lay it all on the table of how I try to meet those goals you simply can not be convinced against your bizarre theories of my psychology and motivations. My goal with cars is a deeper understanding of them through consistency of specs with performance and through engineering explanations, period.

So how does this relate to my simulation efforts on various cars. The M3 is fairly easy to simulate as nothing is hiding in the numbers. It takes very few changes to default values to get its numbers correct (pretty much shift times only). Do remember my initial inability to get reasonable DCT sims though and how I carefully posted the explanation for that and thanked lucid who gave me the simple insight to get it correct? You probably forgot or simply did not read that. On to the C63 AMG which is so clearly under-rated. My enveloping procedure showed this very clearly and the dyno results on an almost identical engine really made that "case closed". Will the M3 M-DCT be very close to as fast as the C63, yes pretty close to 100 mph or so, but then it simply won't be able to keep up. The obvious reason is the large hp deficit. Will it best it back on the track, I'd say very likely. No bias, real numbers, solid conclusions. Do I think the C63 is pretty darn ugly, yes, will that bias me to not give it a completely fair shake in simulation, not an iota of a chance. There is little hiding one can do from truth and facts and good science. I would simply have to be a fool to think I could pull off some grandiose deception like this - selectively incorrect inputs. Hmmm, next: Did I use the incorrect IS-F final drive number that someone provided to me, yes. Did I admit and explain the error and revise my theory based on correcting the mistake? Yes. It is all so simple ruff, your outlandish theories that constantly attack my credibility are simply without merit.

My previous comments about the checkered flag were only to make the point that in motor sports performance directly tied to solid numerical quantities (lap time) always rules. Similarly knowing your and your vehicles capability precisely and providing razor sharp consistency rules in more straight line type of events. No one really cares what the winning nor losing driver feels about the comfort, steering feel, brake feel, etc. Sure the driver cares a bit and teams surely do there fair share of obsessing on these things, but in the end, the numbers speak much louder. This was (obviously) not an argument of the only way one should choose a car - especially choosing a car for a daily driver that one may occsionally take to the track. Misunderstanding, misunderstanding, misunderstanding.

Last on steering feel: You have it wrong here again, sorry. It is possible to isolate or filter through simple engineering principals (mass, stiffness, damping) the bad feel and feedback from a steering system vs. the good feel. The bad feel is much more an NVH issue and the transmission of higher frequency "noise" i.e. vibration through the front chassis and steering components which then affect the feel at the wheel. Good feel obviously relates to the ability to feel what your tires are doing and being able to gage the force feedback into the system from the turning tires. An ability to feel the behavior of the tire itself and the contact patch is also important. This feedback happens from the torque exerted on the wheels through their contact patch working through the front end geometry that tends to self correct turned wheels back to straight. Important design considerations here are steering ratio, power assist vs. no power assist, steering boost, rack design/mechanism, front end suspension type (McPherson vs. double A-arm), etc. Although in practice the design of a system with very good "good feel" relies to some extent on enough stiffness of the front sub frame, suspension arms, the entire steering rack and shafts going to the steering wheel. This stiffness can indeed have a deleterious effect in increasing bad steering feel. Damping and isolator stiffness in the suspension and steering systems will also affect both bad and good steering feel but with careful engineering you can absolutely improve/maintain one and reduce the other. It is my hope and speculation, very loosely supported by various testers comments, that these issues were addressed in the design of the E9X M3s systems. It could be some reality here it could be hopeless want as well. More importantly though than my opinion is that to a large extent each driver, only after some time really spent probing the limits in the car, will be able to decide this. And it will be a matter of opinion with a tremendous amount of subjectivity involved.

Can we please, please stop the incessant questioning of motivation, re-hashing the past, credibility attacks, meta-posts, etc. It is really a bit of a circus and relies on essentially unverifiable speculation. We will disagree but neither of us can really prove many of these things. Our posts that are on topic must speak for themselves. If we can better stick to the issues, our own arguments and opinions, what we think about other's on topic arguments and opinions and then keep all of this primarily focused on cars and the E9X M3, everyone will be way better off. I have been requesting and suggesting this to you in many posts.