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      12-22-2007, 01:30 AM   #186
Conspicuous consumption
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Drives: 987 S .2, Lemond Zurich
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The mountains of Utah

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First of all, your post and the tone of it speaks volumes. I will just leave it at that.

Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Nice avoidance of the SINGLE yes/no question I demanded you answer.
You said I didn't answer the question that you so angrily "demanded". I believe you mean, I didn't answer why I think your assumption is wrong that the GT-R may be underrated? Below is my first response to your thread, as you can see, I didn't questioned whether the GT-R is underrated, in fact, I would probably agree with you that it is and wished the M3 would have been underrated. So my answer is Yes I agree with you based on your data. I hope that makes you feel better.

Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Thanks Swamp and Sdiver,

I would say too bad BMW didn't underrate the M3 like they did the 335. Everyone would then be talking about how fast it is vs the competition, just like the 335 vs it's competition. BMW marketing must of been on holiday when the specs were released.

Actually no, the GT-R it isn't over hyped, it is performing beyond early expectations. The new M3 is the one that was overhyped. Look at the mixed reviews. We don't see many mixed reviews of the GT-R and the R8 now do we?

It is amazing how you can spin the data with the GT-R to make it look as bad as possible, which quite frankly, is even impossible for you. The GT-R plain and simply destroys the new M3. The GT-R numbers, in what ever flavor you wish to display them, do not lie. I guess you can try for the low road in the subjective looks department, since there is really nothing left to argue about.

The Germans are running with their tails between their legs, with simpleton Nissan destroying the whole notion of German supremecy in automotive engineering. The Japanese are spanking the Germans at their own game. To make matters worse, the Lexus LF-A is around the corner. The M3 is going to be average in it's first year of production. How will it compare to it's competition in it's 5th year of production?*

Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You are really getting me going now. Time to back up your BS empty statements. FIND ME A single god damn number I have "cooked". You can't you lying sack. Time to not be so jealous of someone good with numbers, science and evidence. Time to head back into your little dark age cave and enjoy your hopelessly subjective world.
Is this Narcissism in all its splendor or an angry outburst? Maybe a bit of both?

You continually use your simulation numbers to put the M3 in a good light and it's competition in a negative light, especially before the actual numbers are out. Once the actual numbers are out, and you find out that the M3 didn't stack up so well to the C63 and GT-R, as you so humbly predicted, then you wave the only flag you have left, which is the white flag and say the competition is hp underrated, which indeed it may be. My point is, your pre- actual number analysis has not lived up to your pre-actual number hype for the M3 against the competition. How come? How about this, maybe If you wouldn't have been so biased towards the M3 from the get go, you would of have originally predicted the better C63 and GT-R 0-60 times... just a thought. My point is: bias effects the numbers we want to see and not see.

Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Last I checked car performance was a very OBJECTIVE thing, that means NUMBERS. No, it is certainly not the whole story but they sure don't talk much about feel and other flowery BS when the winner gets the checkered flag do they?
Now that you are once again so interested in a cars performance vs flowery things such as badges and steering feel/response, maybe you should check out the GT-R and Z06, since their performance numbers and similar price indicate that they should take the all important checkered flag over your vaunted M3. Agree or disagree?

Oh ya, the "flowery" steering feedback does effect a cars performance, especially in the corners. You don't believe it? Hit a corner at high speed with numb steering feel and see where you confidence and speed is in the next corner.

Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Another fantastic mis-representation of my comments on steering feel vs. steering numbness. You simply can not accurately recapitulate anything I say here, despite it being CRYSTAL clear. You change, warp and modify to suit your own twisted little games, insecurities and lies. It is beyond old, ruff, time to act like a freaking adult. Just to be 100% clear (again) on the steering issue: I said I feel that the E36 M3, although having excellent steering transmits too much of the bad along with the good through its steering system. I thought it would be a great idea for BMW to lose as much of the bad while trying to preserve as much of the good/needed feel and feedback as possible. And although I have not driven the car IT SOUNDS like this is what they have done. This is simply NOT AT ALL how you represented my thoughts above, NOT AT ALL.
So you prefer a number steering feel that transmitts less feedback than your E36. Remember, less feed back means less feel, period, pretty simple theory to follow. The OP of thread was comparing the M3 to a 3 series and was dissapointed in the M3's steering feel compared to the 3 series. How again did my inferrence misrepresent you? Are you now saying you like more feed back, but only the good feed back. Remember the theory is really simple, feedback is feedback, both good and bad. You can't have it both ways ie good feed back only and numbness to bad feedback.

Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I may be embarrasing myself here with my inability to control my anger but you are embarassing yourself in a much worse way. Ruff, this is pathetic.
Actually, I am a bit embarrassed for you, but still respect you. As we both know, profanity and anger does not enhance one's argument, it only diminishes it.

Last edited by ruff; 12-22-2007 at 01:53 AM.