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      03-27-2013, 01:14 PM   #19
Andy H.
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Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
Bulldog CFP,

OK, for sh!ts and giggles and because I have some time, I'll bite. For the record, I feel I represent a largely unrepresented swath of the country and operate not from liberal nor conservative dogma. I think there are points people could agree on if they would just step away from their respective dogmas.
“I feel” and “I think”, doesn’t cut it. Give me a break!

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
Also for the record, I live in liberal San Francisco, but have done quite well in my career.
So what’s your point?

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
The problem with your argument is you are dogmatic in the opposite direction of what you are lambasting, in, imo, an equally unrealistic manner.
Meaningless, unsubstantiated, and aimless.
Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
I think everyone agrees, including the President, that in an ideal world we would have no budget deficit and would in fact be paying down the debt. I think even the progressive caucus believes this, they are just out there on how.
Here we go again with the, “I think” perspective. Clearly, you do not see the fact that this president has no desire to implement a budget. Five years into his presidency with a 17 TRILLION dollar national debt obligation and a 1 trillion dollar budget deficit with no budget yet. And all he continues to do is campaign for his increased spending and play golf!
Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
When you throw actual dollar amounts into your argument, you weaken it. Debt is measured by "honest economists" as a % of GDP, and you take into account inflation. Suggesting that the real dollar amount historically is some relatively absurd value is not actually helpful. It's true, it just isn't really what matters. Similar "biggest spending president in history". Guess what? Odds are the next one will be even bigger, regardless of party. The bipartisan budget commission suggested we cut about $4T from the budget deficit through spending and taxes over 10 years and guess what? We're pretty much at that amount of cutting/taxes over the past two years or so.
“When you throw actual dollar amounts into your argument, you weaken it.” Whew! Really? Again, clearly your unfounded opinion. Sheesh! It's just $17 TRILLION. No biggy, right Mmcnutly?!?

“Debt is measured by "honest economists" as a % of GDP, and you take into account inflation”

Our gross debt to GDP Ratio is 106%.

Ask any honest economist or any business or financial analyst if this is healthy!

“Odds are the next one will be even bigger, regardless of party.”

Obama has added more to our national debt than all presidents before him combined. This is a fact. So, you are diminishing this by SPECULATING that it’s okay because the next president will spend even more? Wow! It is evident that you believe the BS line, that all the liberal progressives spew to their ignorant constituents for support, “we need to invest more in…”. Liberal translation for investing: Borrow and spend.

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
Anyone can quote absurd federal spending as an argument against waste. I can also claim you should turn off lights in rooms you aren't in in your home - this has about the same % effect on the problem as the programs you describe. One could also quote massive tax giveaways we are giving to hedge fund managers and energy companies that are equally appalling on the other end of the spectrum. This is also not really helpful.
I need a shovel. It’s getting really deep in here!

You are actually equating all the Federal Government waste as though it’s inconsequential minutia or to that of leaving a light on when no one is occupying the room. Wow! Really? Mmcnutly, help us all out here and specify any government entity that is running lean, mean, profitable, offers value to the folks and isn’t broke.

Okay, here we go with the liberal progressive talking points of bashing the oil companies. And I bet you aren’t driving an electric car either! If you don’t like it then stop using petroleum based products. Or, don’t invest in a hedge fund. You make the choice!

But it is okay, from your perspective, that California Alameda County executive Susan Muranishi will be doing just fine when she retires on $470,000 a year for life and even getting performance bonuses to boot when she’s no longer performing! At least the folks are getting something for what they are paying for from the oil companies. Oh, here’s one, I wonder why California Berkeley City Councilman Gordon Wozniak wants to tax emails. Suggesting that the money collected, which would be part of a wider-reaching internet tax, could be used in Berkeley’s case to save the local post office!?!

Hey Mmcnutly, why is the U.S. Post Office broke in the first place? Why is UPS, DHL, FedEx, etc. profitable? Mmcnutly, please enlighten us on why you think/feel/speculate that California is $164 billion dollars in Debt?

They will never be able to pay it back! And while you are at it, please let us know your thoughts on why there is a mass exodus of folks from California to states like Texas (and I pray they do not bring their liberal ideology with them).

You must not be paying your fair share of taxes, mmcnutly! C’mon, man up! Sheesh!!!! Hey man, we’re only 17 trillion in debt and running a 1 trillion dollar budget deficit. Right, Mmcnutly? No biggy.

Oh BTW, following your oil company logic, then we should all stop going to the movies because the movie stars are hoarding millions of dollars in profit instead of equally distributing it among all the other folks who were employed to help make the movie. “Apalling”.

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
Taxes as a % of GDP are at an all-time low, so that is also not really relevant.
C’mon Mmcnutly, use that space between your ears and think it through. Also, just a helpful tip, if you stop watching the liberal progressive main stream biased news and listening to Nancy Pelosi you will have a better opportunity to think outside the box.

Taxes as a % of GDP are at an all-time low because the economy is in the crapper with 8% unemployment (double digit when you factor in all those who have stopped looking). The U.S. has the highest corporate tax structure over any other developed country in the world.

Mmcnutly, why do you think U.S. companies are hoarding cash, running on the least amount of employees and not hiring and growing?

Obviously tax revenue would be higher if the economy was thriving. C’mon dude, Econ 101.

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
The amount of spending that isn't the military and entitlements could be cut to ZERO and it would not get rid of the deficit. And there's lots of good stuff in that category like medical research that no one would agree we should cut.
This is simply more meaningless, unsubstantiated and aimless comments. I particularly like the use of, “stuff”. It solidifies your point very well.

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
The progressive caucus is equally wrong. I live in a city where progressives have gone relatively mad, and it sucks as bad as it would if right-wing people were in charge, just in different ways.
You are saying that “right-wing peoples” belief in fiscal responsibility, financial independence, freedom from government tyranny is as bad as the liberal progressives who embrace the belief that the Government can do better for you than you can do for yourself? The same folks who want European socialism, entitlement (nanny) state, no budget or spending limits, and ignore fiscal responsibility?

Take a good hard look at our country, mmcnutly. Do you like what you see?

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
My point is this: Both sides are unclean in this argument. Neither side actually owns a public opinion mandate - americans like smaller government in the abstract, but also like all of the individual programs it provides in the specific, silly edge cases you describe excepted.
The majority embrace smaller government, financial independence and personal responsibility. They enjoy taking the initiative that is reinforced with reward of personal success, achievment and financial freedom. This is the very essence of what made our country so great.

Sadly, this majority is not far off from becoming the minority. Our current administration has done an exceptional job at getting more people addicted to entitlements. And, it is difficult to get them off once they’ve embraced it. Think about it. An individual earning $50,000 a year after taxes nets less take home pay than a comparable individual on welfare. What would you do?

Mmcnutly, what can you glean from Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain or Portugal? Do they offer you any insight? What about Cyprus?

Can you glean any comparisons here?

Oh yeah, our nation’s financial situation is "comparable to one leaving a light on while no one is in the room". Oh Sorry, man. I forgot your perspective on that.

Originally Posted by mmcnulty View Post
If you object to something here, please try and be specific about it. *Both* sides are being vague and it is unhelpful. Tell me which program that totals more than 1% of the budget you would cut and how. Don't just repeat Fox News talking points, and don't just use the other extreme to try and make your point.
I’ve been very specific since the inception of this thread. However, you are hypocritical to ask me to be specific when you fail to do the same.

Who is repeating Fox News talking points? It doesn’t matter where you get your news as long as you question, challenge and verify everything. Am I wrong?

Last edited by Andy H.; 03-28-2013 at 10:48 AM.