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      08-24-2007, 12:20 PM   #96
Noize
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I know that Romans says that "the wages of sin is death" but if you say there had to be a sacrifice for forgiveness, you are limiting God's ability. God has no requirements to forgive. Allah says in the Quran that he says "be" and it is.
The Quran tells that truth is found in the Bible and that we are not to waver from it.

Surah 10:94 And if you (Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before you. So be not of the waverers.


The Quran commands you to believe the scripture.

Surah 4:136 O you who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scriputre which He has revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime Whosoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Scriptures and His messengers and the Last day he verily has wandered far astray.

Genesis:
Adam was in perfect relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. He saw God, talked with God, and knew what God was like. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God told him that in the day that he ate from it, he would die. Satan tempted Eve, she ate of the forbidden fruit, then she offered it to Adam who also ate it. Immediately, they felt shame, tried to cover their nakedness, and hid from God. Adam and Eve did not die physically that day. However, they were cast out of the garden and separated from God that day.

As you stated, Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." **The Bible tells us that the penalty of sin is death.


Quote:
Also, why should you have to confess your sins to anyone other than God? I feel that Islam is the truth because it understands the concept of sin much differently.

Allah firstly says that "man was created weak". His noble Prophet (SAW) also said that "All children of Adam (AS) are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent".

However, I feel that the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus tells many parables etc that show us that forgiveness has NO requirement at all. The fact is that Allah is so loving and understanding about our weaknesses. He encourages us to go to him for forgiveness. He has the absolute power to exercise forgivess without any requirement. That my friend, is love.
Because Christians see Jesus as God, as the Messiah. Just because our finite minds cannot process infinity and physically understand the Trinity as a concrete tangible, does mean its not true or you have somehow disproven it? Of course not!

Sin means separation from from God, who is life. Physical death entered the world because of Adam and Eve's sin, but the big penalty of sin is that is separates us from God. Adam and Eve's attempts to cover their shame (nakedness) was useless, but God killed an animal and covered them in animal skin. In short, sin produces death. Death is separation from God.

After God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, He told Moses to build an altar so that when the people sinned, they might bring a blood sacrifice as an offering for sin. And for the next 1500 years, until Jesus came, every day the people saw the penalty of sin- death. Those who wanted to be in right standing before God had to bring the offering that God required for their sin.

That is to say, in the the very fabric of the existence of His people, Israel, God wove the picture of the blood sacrifice. The Passover feast that celebrated their deliverance from bondage reminded them of the lamb that died and became the substitute for them. The constant sacrifices for sin reminded them that the penalty of sin was death.

When Christ came into the picture (who Christians believed as the Messiah), the debt of His blood offering paid the price in full.



Quote:
You speak of showing humility to another human, why not show humility to the one Lord who CREATED you? It is God's law you broke, not the person you confess to. We believe that Allah alone has the power to forgive sins. Why should we require anyone else to forgive us?
Because the Christian faith sees The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as God.


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Well, if I was to respond to that I would firstly ask who is Jesus? I have shown at great length that he is not the Son of God.
That's your opinion, but you are far from proof. Only statements.

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Now, even if he was the Son of God, it would be theologically impossible for him to die for the sins of the world.
Why do you feel that God made flesh and sacrificed to pay once and for all for man's sin to those who believe is theologically impossible? Based on what?

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Okay bro. Lets suppose he paved the way for forgiveness. Either way, it still limits God's abilities to forgive. He needs nothing to forgive us. Anyway, how can God win any rights? he has full rights of everything since he is the creator. That statement limits God's abilities.
It doesn't limit his ability to forgive at all. We (by sinning) are CHOOSING separation. If you offer me your hand, but I slap it away, I've hardened my heart against you by refusing to take it. Holiness doesn't take unholiness. We're in a sin filled world and cannot comprehend (finite) black and white. And we sure cannot attain holiness by ourselves because of our sinful nature. Jesus as God made flesh is the only person who never sinned once. Muhammad certainly can't claim that!

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Also, how can we say that Jesus won the right as a HUMAN and then go on to say Jesus is God? If you are human, you cannot be God. They are completely different and it starts with God being infinite and Humans being finite. I posted this in post #445 in "World without mass religion"
Again, you're putting your finite restrictions on the infinite God that you cannot_physically_understand. How can man's laws define the God that wrote the book? Answer: They can't.

Quote:
Faith must be based on something. How can you base it on nothing? If that is the case, how can you tell me to embrace Christ instead of Hinduism? Also, it is only to easy to say that we cannot understand the "mysteries of God". So by admitting we dont understand them, how can we believe it? What I'm really trying to say is that how can you base faith on something you cannot be sure of OR understand?
If you can't see what my faith is based on from the above writing, I don't know if we will be able to understand each other and have a coherent dialog.
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