View Single Post
      08-24-2012, 12:46 AM   #77
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,030
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
First of all, my initial participation in this string was in regard to how hand fitting of pistons could be of benefit, even in an automated world. That's all. My subsequent participation in this string was also in that specific area, except where I responded to your 3-micron crank journal quote - which was off (my) narrow topic.
OK you have some anecdotal evidence that some form of hand fitting pistons might offer some benefits. What must be emphasized about this is that this is one particular case of hand fitting one component in contrast with a comparison to one particular process for machine fitting them. It says nothing about every form of hand fitting vs. a reasonable machine approach attempting to meet the same goals. I.e. there is no one singular hand fitting approach as there is no one singular machine approach. There are a plethora of variables, variations and options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Second, you had your chance to back off your micron or smaller position back in note 64. When I mentioned that you were dreaming, you said: "Sorry, wrong." Too late to weasel out now.
There is zero attempt to weasel out of anything. You clearly need a logic 101 refresher to elucidate the difference between "AND" and "OR". My original statement was 100% correct and factual, no if's and's or but's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I am absolutely not positive, meaning I have no direct knowledge of this. When the engine was introduced, I read a number of reports in regard to this being the first AMG-only engine, and that it was hand assembled. Since then, I haven't read anything about this version or that version being machine assembled, and I assume there would've been something if that indeed had become the case. Again, no personal knowledge of this, but that's the way to bet, I think.
Again how do you possibly reconcile this with the plethora of cars using this engine, those known production volumes (quite high) and then either the raw feasibility or the economics of hand assembly? It just does not add up. It doesn't pass the simple litmus test of what is reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
.... Generally speaking, keeping things on the loose side of the spec meant more power.
And one off racing engines have what exactly to do with the needs, requirements, scale or economics of high volume passenger vehicle engine production?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
As I've already mentioned in this string, hand assembly and big volumes don't work from a cost perspective.
You are taking the words right out of my mouth. This is also contradictory to your basic belief about what MB is doing with this engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
To repeat myself, the other reason for hand assembly is performance. As a for instance, you can bet that every 911, every M3, every 458 and anything else competing in the ALMS has a lovingly hand built engine.
And the reason is as much or more driven by economics than performance. Did you watch the video I posted prior? Do you think a race team can afford something like that? This is such an absolutely simple observation and common sense. VOLUME DICTATES ASSEMBLY TECHNIQUE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You and I disagree that hand assembly is an outdated notion.
See above. It all comes down to volume. Hand assembly is absolutely romanticized but it is never outdated if it provides the lowest cost. Again, if not clear a basically hyper-capitalism perspective...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
As to Mercedes dishonesty, you have no direct knowledge of that, and of course you don't believe that their 6.2 liter engine weighs the stated 436 pounds, either. So we know that you have something of an attitude about MB, therefore dropping your credibility in regard to MB issues down to near zero.
A pretty feeble attempt Bruce, really. All I believe about engine weights (or the weight of any other "thing" you want to understand) is that when they are made of nearly identical materials, with nearly identical components, in fundamentally identical configurations, that the larger of two items will be the heavier item. If the opposite turns out to be the case then most likely there is a different definition of what a complete item is comprised of. Does such common sense escape you? Now just to be clear I never said impossible, just very unlikely. You are probably one in a billion here who believes that marketing BS directly from the manufacturer is solidly and definitively more reliable than basic logic. It's really time for some more healthy skepticism from you. I know is is not beyond you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
We'll agree to disagree about money driving this entirely. More on that in a PS, below.
Praise the lord, we are back on track. Wait, wait, what is it performance or money, what is the driver. Please make up your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I personally feel that improved quality and performance is the chief reason for them hand assembling the 6.2, but "improved quality and performance" is a statement that needs filling out, or a better definition, if you will.
Money, performance, money, performance, money, performance.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
PS - In regard to Chevrolet, they hand assemble Corvette engines fitted to the Grand Sport stick cars, all Z06s and all ZR-1s. A year or so back, I asked a Corvette engineer (during the Corvettes at Carlisle massive show) about why they did this. He said that they got a bit of power out of hand assembly, but mostly they did it because from their perspective, these particular models were going to get beaten like a red headed step child, and would last better under those conditions.

I mention this because it's another reason why manufacturers may do this, and this subject is not quite as cut and dry as you seem to think.
Yes, we all know that manufacturers all offer 20 year, 200k mile drivetrain warranties.... They don't care that much about an overall extremely reliable subsystem (main engine assembly) in the face of many dozens of drastically less reliable parts and components.

Believe what you want, it is a lot of traditional hod-rodder/race team type of mentality. For PRODUCTION vehicles the manufacturing is all about the volume, capacity, assembly time and last but still greatest COST.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote